West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Marshsparrow]

how can Gatineau afford this?

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

how can Gatineau afford this?

3 phases of Ottawa LRT will cost about 8 Billion IIRC, so 2.1B for the city of Gatineau size sounds about right.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

how can Gatineau afford this?

Good Day.

Traditionally (that is- ever since the second phase of the Montreal Metro in preparation for the 1976 Olympics) the contribution share in Quebec province has been extremely high from the provincial government as compared to the standard or low share from the federal government and a very low share from the municipality (by RMOC standards). IIRC, anywhere from 80-0-20 to 60-30-10 (rough numbers, no backing for them, but I believe they are in the neighbourhoods). They are, in that respect, closer to what has also been the proposed practice from Queen's Park for other municipalities (except us) in Ontario for major transit in the last 10 years (Hamilton, K-W, Toronto burbs (even including the Scarborough proposed LRT - still on the books as fully Queen's Park, even if Ford is about to turmoil the whole thing again)) in taking on a majority of the capital costs (not ops costs).

For Your Consideration.

[Marshsparrow]

thx for the info!

[Horus]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

I guess it would look something like this:

Looking at it from this perspective, it makes the St-Raymond segment seem less effective than it might be to route directly north from POW bridge (via Saint-Joseph?) and working up to Gamelin to rejoin the proposed route at Plateau. If those are distinct lines, having the interlined segment between Taché and Saint-Joseph stations is of little benefit.

I get it from a logistical standpoint, that Saint-Raymond is the path of least resistance as it has a wide ROW and median to use, but wouldn't using the Gamelin ROW across Gatineau Park, then curving south (perhaps at Moussette?) and then finding a route to the Saint-Joseph/Taché approach to the POW bridge provide a wider coverage range? If they could convince the NCC to give them access to the portion of Prom Lac-des-Fées between des Allumettières and Taché, they could connect to Moussette. This would service the Hospital area and provide at least somewhat close range (10-15min walk) to the Vincent-Massey complex. Then, when the Rapibus is converted to LRT, the Wrightville sector of Hull would have LRT service on both sides.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Horus

Looking at it from this perspective, it makes the St-Raymond segment seem less effective than it might be to route directly north from POW bridge (via Saint-Joseph?) and working up to Gamelin to rejoin the proposed route at Plateau. If those are distinct lines, having the interlined segment between Taché and Saint-Joseph stations is of little benefit.

I get it from a logistical standpoint, that Saint-Raymond is the path of least resistance as it has a wide ROW and median to use, but wouldn't using the Gamelin ROW across Gatineau Park, then curving south (perhaps at Moussette?) and then finding a route to the Saint-Joseph/Taché approach to the POW bridge provide a wider coverage range? If they could convince the NCC to give them access to the portion of Prom Lac-des-Fées between des Allumettières and Taché, they could connect to Moussette. This would service the Hospital area and provide at least somewhat close range (10-15min walk) to the Vincent-Massey complex. Then, when the Rapibus is converted to LRT, the Wrightville sector of Hull would have LRT service on both sides.

The thing is, the focus is on residents west of Gatineau Park (they claim that 42.6% of current residences there will be within a 700m walk from a station). If you look at the "Map showing the distance from residences" on pg. 19, you will see the two stations on Saint-Raymond contribute to that coverage (see inside the orange circle in my clip below). A more northern route would be more beneficial to Hull residents, not "Aylmer" ones.

Having said that, I do agree that running south and interlining between boulevard Saint-Raymond and Prince of Wales Bridge, probably isn't the best option overall. I don't think Gamelin is the best route though as it is very narrow and would require either a lot of land expropriation to widen it or grade separation. Both of these options would be very expensive.

A better option IMHO would be to run along Allumettières from Saint-Raymond to Laurier (shown in blue on my clip below), where it could be switched onto the other line to either loop back through Hull or continue across the Alexandra Bridge to Rideau.

As for the POW bridge, I just don't see it being the right choice. We are only considering it because it is there. Back when it was built in 1880, LeBreton Flats was the industrial centre of Ottawa and the Broad St. Station (located just south of where the War Musium now sits) soon after became Ottawa's first Union Station (Ottawa's central railway station that is where we now call downtown wasn't built until 1912). Now, it doesn't take anyone anywhere useful. That will change a bit with the development of LeBreton Flats, but most people's destination will still be downtown.

Instead I think we should revert the Chaudière Bridge back to an LRT bridge (it was previously used for Street Cars) and then have it run to Bay and Spark Street (or possibly a bit further). This (when combined with a Rideau St. Station) would get most people within a 700m walk of their destination. Those who aren't, could then transfer to a train (or bus) that has already alighted a significant portion of its passengers.

[lrt's friend]

My idea of creating a downtown loop that uses the Interprovincial and Chaudiere bridges would be the useful for the most people on both sides of the river including tourists. It minimizes the need for inconvenient transfers.

The first central railway station located near what we call Confederation Square opened in 1895 and was replaced by Union Station (originally called the Grand Trunk Station) in 1912. The Broad Street Station on Lebreton Flats was used by the CPR but there was also a station on Elgin Street where the Queensway is. It was used by the Canada Atlantic Railway (Booth's Railway).

[1overcosc]

^ How would you have this loop run? As a single continuous loop through the downtowns, with the Gatineau and Ottawa rapid transit systems connecting to it via transfer, or with the various systems interlining with it some extent?

[rocketphish]

Gatineau proposes $2.1B light-rail line with eye to 2028 launch

By: OBJ staff
Published: Jun 21, 2018 7:06am EDT



The City of Gatineau unveiled an ambitious vision Wednesday for $2.1-billion light-rail line that includes two links with Ottawa’s own rapid-transit network.

The 26-kilometre rail system would link Aylmer in the west with central Plateau and cross both the Alexandra and Prince of Wales bridges into Ottawa, connecting with the city’s Confederation Line.

Gatineau would still need to secure provincial and federal funding for the project, which the municipality envisions would open in 2028.

City documents say the LRT line is meant to serve the approximately 45,000 Gatineau residents who work in Ottawa, representing roughly 38 per cent of the city’s total population. Officials expect the proposed line to reduce congestion on Gatineau’s roadways and reduce the number of STO buses heading into Ottawa by 60 per cent.

Public consultations cited by the municipality show 47 per cent of residents are in favour of an LRT line in Gatineau. City statistics project a 22 per cent population increase over the next 15 years, with a 50 per cent associated rise in mobility demands.

http://www.obj.ca/article/gatineau-proposes-21b-light-rail-line-eye-2028-launch

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The thing is, the focus is on residents west of Gatineau Park (they claim that 42.6% of current residences there will be within a 700m walk from a station). If you look at the "Map showing the distance from residences" on pg. 19, you will see the two stations on Saint-Raymond contribute to that coverage (see inside the orange circle in my clip below). A more northern route would be more beneficial to Hull residents, not "Aylmer" ones.

I noticed that too and hope we're not totally wedded to grandstanding with some percentage and screenline.

Most important should be the total number of people served.

A colleague at work and I were observing that for what most people consider Hull*, about 70-80%+ of it won't have any rapid transit of any kind until the 2030s at the earliest. Basically everything except the very southernmost portion of Hull, and a small fringe served by Rapibus that is more industrial than residential. This is a very central part of our city. But nada.

*The eastern Plateau was part of the Ville de Hull, but is quite separate from central Hull.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

My idea of creating a downtown loop that uses the Interprovincial and Chaudiere bridges would be the useful for the most people on both sides of the river including tourists. It minimizes the need for inconvenient transfers.

The first central railway station located near what we call Confederation Square opened in 1895 and was replaced by Union Station (originally called the Grand Trunk Station) in 1912. The Broad Street Station on Lebreton Flats was used by the CPR but there was also a station on Elgin Street where the Queensway is. It was used by the Canada Atlantic Railway (Booth's Railway).

According to Wikipedia, Ottawa originally had 4 railway stations:

1. New Edinburgh: Bytown and Prescott Railway
2. Broad Street: Canada Central Railway, QMO&O: 1870, 1881, 1896, 1900
3. Elgin Street: Canada Atlantic Railway: early 1880s
4. Nicholas Street at Mann Avenue: Ottawa and New York Railway: 1895

A station need not be used by all railways to be considered a Union Station, just by more than one.

[jchilds72]

I wonder if/how the proposed addition to the Chateau Laurier could affect the downtown terminus and if anyone has talked to them.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The thing is, the focus is on residents west of Gatineau Park (they claim that 42.6% of current residences there will be within a 700m walk from a station). If you look at the "Map showing the distance from residences" on pg. 19, you will see the two stations on Saint-Raymond contribute to that coverage (see inside the orange circle in my clip below). A more northern route would be more beneficial to Hull residents, not "Aylmer" ones.

Having said that, I do agree that running south and interlining between boulevard Saint-Raymond and Prince of Wales Bridge, probably isn't the best option overall. I don't think Gamelin is the best route though as it is very narrow and would require either a lot of land expropriation to widen it or grade separation. Both of these options would be very expensive.

A better option IMHO would be to run along Allumettières from Saint-Raymond to Laurier (shown in blue on my clip below), where it could be switched onto the other line to either loop back through Hull or continue across the Alexandra Bridge to Rideau.

As for the POW bridge, I just don't see it being the right choice. We are only considering it because it is there. Back when it was built in 1880, LeBreton Flats was the industrial centre of Ottawa and the Broad St. Station (located just south of where the War Musium now sits) soon after became Ottawa's first Union Station (Ottawa's central railway station that is where we now call downtown wasn't built until 1912). Now, it doesn't take anyone anywhere useful. That will change a bit with the development of LeBreton Flats, but most people's destination will still be downtown.

Instead I think we should revert the Chaudière Bridge back to an LRT bridge (it was previously used for Street Cars) and then have it run to Bay and Spark Street (or possibly a bit further). This (when combined with a Rideau St. Station) would get most people within a 700m walk of their destination. Those who aren't, could then transfer to a train (or bus) that has already alighted a significant portion of its passengers.

I agree with your improved suggestion, even though i live 1km from the nearest proposed station at the history museum putting the line and stations along Les Allumettières would cut my walking distance by 2/3rds which would be far more useful for myself and many Hull residents. So yeah i think you have the right idea.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The thing is, the focus is on residents west of Gatineau Park (they claim that 42.6% of current residences there will be within a 700m walk from a station). If you look at the "Map showing the distance from residences" on pg. 19, you will see the two stations on Saint-Raymond contribute to that coverage (see inside the orange circle in my clip below). A more northern route would be more beneficial to Hull residents, not "Aylmer" ones.

Having said that, I do agree that running south and interlining between boulevard Saint-Raymond and Prince of Wales Bridge, probably isn't the best option overall. I don't think Gamelin is the best route though as it is very narrow and would require either a lot of land expropriation to widen it or grade separation. Both of these options would be very expensive.

A better option IMHO would be to run along Allumettières from Saint-Raymond to Laurier (shown in blue on my clip below), where it could be switched onto the other line to either loop back through Hull or continue across the Alexandra Bridge to Rideau.

As for the POW bridge, I just don't see it being the right choice. We are only considering it because it is there. Back when it was built in 1880, LeBreton Flats was the industrial centre of Ottawa and the Broad St. Station (located just south of where the War Musium now sits) soon after became Ottawa's first Union Station (Ottawa's central railway station that is where we now call downtown wasn't built until 1912). Now, it doesn't take anyone anywhere useful. That will change a bit with the development of LeBreton Flats, but most people's destination will still be downtown.

Instead I think we should revert the Chaudière Bridge back to an LRT bridge (it was previously used for Street Cars) and then have it run to Bay and Spark Street (or possibly a bit further). This (when combined with a Rideau St. Station) would get most people within a 700m walk of their destination. Those who aren't, could then transfer to a train (or bus) that has already alighted a significant portion of its passengers.

I don't disagree with a proposal to use Allumettières as a route in principle, although having LRT vehicles navigate through the 3-ring circus (between Labelle and Saint-Joseph) might be problematic without grade separation as well. Allumettières does have much better TOD potential IMO.

However, your map now orphans the POW bridge spur. Given a choice, in this situation I think it makes much more sense for the Trillium line to be brought one stop over the bridge (to Chaudieres/Montcalm) than to have STO operate a shuttle spur over the bridge from Saint-Joseph to Bayview.

You could short-circuit the closed loop by following des Allumettières from Saint-Raymond/Plateau to Saint-Joseph, then veering onto Montcalm to create a Rapibus/G-train 'hub' at the current Rapibus hub at Montcalm, then, picking up the existing tracks to parallel the existing Rapibus route to Saint-Joseph/UQO and onward over the POW bridge. Maybe the best of both worlds? OtrainUser would probably like that a lot.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Horus

I don't disagree with a proposal to use Allumettières as a route in principle, although having LRT vehicles navigate through the 3-ring circus (between Labelle and Saint-Joseph) might be problematic without grade separation as well. Allumettières does have much better TOD potential IMO.

However, your map now orphans the POW bridge spur. Given a choice, in this situation I think it makes much more sense for the Trillium line to be brought one stop over the bridge (to Chaudieres/Montcalm) than to have STO operate a shuttle spur over the bridge from Saint-Joseph to Bayview.

You could short-circuit the closed loop by following des Allumettières from Saint-Raymond/Plateau to Saint-Joseph, then veering onto Montcalm to create a Rapibus/G-train 'hub' at the current Rapibus hub at Montcalm, then, picking up the existing tracks to parallel the existing Rapibus route to Saint-Joseph/UQO and onward over the POW bridge. Maybe the best of both worlds? OtrainUser would probably like that a lot.

Your damn right I would like a lot.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It looks like they hope to have the station will be at the Château Laurier (not at Rideau Station). The PDF says, "within walking distance of the Rideau station." My guess is no direct connection so people will have to use the Rideau Centre entrance, unless they decide to dig a pedestrian tunnel under Rideau.

Since the terminal station will need to be underground, it would make more sense to connect underground to the Rideau station, istm. The tunnel from the bridge under the park and the Chateau or 700 Sussex is going to be hugely expensive.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

I wasn't in favour of it before, but if this project goes forward, Ottawa and Gatineau should merge their transit services (GO Transpo=Gatineau Ottawa Transpo). It makes sense for the region to have one system operated by an somewhat independent regional transit authority that has representation from both municipalities.

On a side note, Jim Watson isn't wrong, but him telling Gatineau they have to fully pay for train service across the Prince of Wales Bridge reminds me of Trump telling Mexico he's going to make them pay for a wall.

I'm not sure why this would be needed for two separate transit systems that will have two points of contact, both of them terminal stations in the case of Gatineau.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The main line out to Aylmer is 15.4 km with 18 stations, for an average of about 900m between stations.

The plateau branch, which is dumb for other reasons, is 7km with 12 stations, for an average of 600m between stations.

For a surface-running LRT, I don't think that's an unreasonable frequency of stations.

Why do you think the Plateau line is dumb?

[acottawa]

I really don't see the point of messing around with the rail bridges. They are going to be a world of complications and litigation. Portage could easily accommodate the streetcars they're planning to use.

But if they do use the rail bridges:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Since the terminal station will need to be underground, it would make more sense to connect underground to the Rideau station, istm. The tunnel from the bridge under the park and the Chateau or 700 Sussex is going to be hugely expensive.

Couldn't they put the station under the bridge (the span covering the rail track is still there).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

According to Wikipedia, Ottawa originally had 4 railway stations:

1. New Edinburgh: Bytown and Prescott Railway
2. Broad Street: Canada Central Railway, QMO&O: 1870, 1881, 1896, 1900
3. Elgin Street: Canada Atlantic Railway: early 1880s
4. Nicholas Street at Mann Avenue: Ottawa and New York Railway: 1895

A station need not be used by all railways to be considered a Union Station, just by more than one.

Here is a picture of the original Central Station that opened in 1895 that was replaced by Union Station in 1912. It is interesting to see an early tramway to the right.