Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Is anyone proposing rail over the PoW bridge as the only interprovincial transit connection?

Perhaps not. But you are proposing to invest a significant amount of transit money in PoW that could be invested in lots of other places, when the ROI for PoW is fairly uncertain.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps not. But you are proposing to invest a significant amount of transit money in PoW that could be invested in lots of other places, when the ROI for PoW is fairly uncertain.

Let's at least get a handle on how much it would cost to refurbish the bridge and build a simple platform on the Hull end before we condemn it as too much money.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Also, Albert and Slater Streets will likely be slower for buses once the bus lanes are removed.

Things will likely be quite different on Albert-Slater after the transition.

For starters there will be far fewer STO buses at peak times on those streets than there are OC Transpo buses on there at the moment.

Second, and perhaps most importantly, STO service on there will be a different beast than OC Transpo's Transitway usage of Albert-Slater.

OC Transpo routes run "through" the downtown with relatively equal numbers of buses on either street during both rush hours.

STO will run the vast majority of its buses eastbound down Slater in the morning, and westbound down Albert in the afternoon.

This won't be so bad, as in my experience the congestion is/was always at its worst eastbound on Slater in the afternoon in the CBD.

Westbound congestion is/was usually at its worst in the afternoon just outside the CBD, in the vicinity of Albert and Booth near LeBreton Station, where bus traffic meets with heavy bridge traffic to and from the Chaudière crossing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Let's at least get a handle on how much it would cost to refurbish the bridge and build a simple platform on the Hull end before we condemn it as too much money.

I am not opposed to this.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Pardon my ignorance, but does STO not have the equivalent of OC Transpos express (or now named Connexion) routes? If not, why are there so many different routes heading into Ottawa?

As far as I understand it, "Express" and "Connexion" routes are not the same at OC Transpo. Or at least, the old "Express" routes do not appear to have become the new "Connexion" routes.

Anyway, with the implementation of the Rapibus, the STO moved to a partial hub and spoke model. This was most comprehensively implemented in the Gatineau sector and to a lesser degree in the Aylmer sector (even if they don't have Rapibus - there it is centred on the Rivermead Parc-o-Bus terminal). There aren't that many routes going directly into downtown Ottawa from Aylmer and (old) Gatineau compared to what there used to be. I live in the Gatineau sector and my neighbourhood no longer has direct express peak hour service to downtown Hull and Ottawa. You have to take a local and then transfer to a Rapibus line. Before, we had direct express service down Gréber-Fournier-Maisonneuve-Portage-Wellington-Rideau.

The real culprits are the routes from Hull which almost all without exception include a loop down King Edward, Wellington and Rideau, and have done so for maybe as long as 50-75 years AFAIK.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What's your point? Short of building an LRT to everyone's front door, they will need to transfer somewhere. And most of them will be transferring once. Bus to LRT.

Compare that to the hypothetical of running buses along PoW. They transfer from local bus to Rapibus (or get on a Rapibus) to Confed line at Bayview. Why is the extra transfer needed? Just run the bus they are on through the core or westward to Tunney's. And get them closer to their final destination. There's simply no need to actually transfer to the Confederation Line.

Suggesting that we direct most bus traffic to Bayview is moronic because it creates a problem where there is none. What exactly is wrong with the current setup for STO or OC Transpo? Is either side unhappy with the current arrangement? Or is the argument to run buses to Bayview simply an attempt to justify spending on the PoW? This is sunk cost fallacy run amok.

Again, nobody is suggesting all or most buses use the PoW, just some, maybe a third max. Ottawa is spending a couple of billion to rid its downtown streets of express buses in hopes there will be more room for pedestrians and cyclists, not to provide room for STO buses. If nothing is done, in a few years we will be back to the same volume of buses on Albert/Slater but there will be little we can do about it, and Gatineau certainly won't be bending backwards to solve a problem that's not in their jurisdiction.

Personally, I'd like to see the number of STO buses capped to a reasonable volume, then beyond that say sorry you'll have to use Bayview, or work together to find some other permanent rapid transit solution. No mater what it is I bet it will involve a transfer because it is inevitable.

[Acajack]

I think you need to be mindful to not upset the apple cart too much. (This applies to people anywhere - not just Gatineau people working in Ottawa.)

Just because some Ottawans would like fewer buses on their downtown streets doesn't mean the STO routings to downtown Ottawa should be made inconvenient to the point where a bunch of people write off transit and start taking their cars.

That would be defeating the purpose and cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you need to be mindful to not upset the apple cart too much. (This applies to people anywhere - not just Gatineau people working in Ottawa.)

Just because some Ottawans would like fewer buses on their downtown streets doesn't mean the STO routings to downtown Ottawa should be made inconvenient to the point where a bunch of people write off transit and start taking their cars.

That would be defeating the purpose and cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The thing is, pretty well the majority of Ottawans who don't live within walking distance to the LRT will have to transfer to get downtown. Why would transferring be such a hardship for the commuters of Gatineau?

[roger1818]

The thing is, the confederation line will be very frequent during peak periods so transferring to it will not be an issue. The rapibus may not be quite as frequent, so transferring to it won't be as good but no worse than waiting for it on the street. Being able to wait for it in an enclosed station might actually make it more pleasant.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Again, nobody is suggesting all or most buses use the PoW, just some, maybe a third max.

Even a third is not an insignificant amount. It's hundreds of buses per day. You will cause a ton of transferring from people who aren't on the right bus. That's quite a detrimental impact when STO is saying the post-LRT arrangement will see 73% of their Ottawa bound riders benefiting from a reduced travel time.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Ottawa is spending a couple of billion to rid its downtown streets of express buses in hopes there will be more room for pedestrians and cyclists....

No. Ottawa is spending 5 billion dollars to increase throughput through the downtown core, because that's where it was capacity constrained. More room for pedestrians and cyclists is a byproduct. It was never even a moderately primary consideration. Heck, at one point during their options analysis, they even considered using other streets in the downtown core to move even more buses through there.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

If nothing is done, in a few years we will be back to the same volume of buses on Albert/Slater but there will be little we can do about it, and Gatineau certainly won't be bending backwards to solve a problem that's not in their jurisdiction.

This is FUD. Gatineau's population and growth rates are nowhere close to this scenario coming true. And lest we forget, the new post-LRT changes will see a net drop in traffic even with STO buses moving to Albert and Slater.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-post-lrt-plan

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...-sto-1.4133115

The relevant bit:

The city said Friday that even with the additional STO routes, overall bus volume along the corridor will shrink by 65 per cent.

So can we please stop acting like Albert and Slater will just be full of STO buses like OC T does today?

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Personally, I'd like to see the number of STO buses capped to a reasonable volume, then beyond that say sorry you'll have to use Bayview, or work together to find some other permanent rapid transit solution. No mater what it is I bet it will involve a transfer because it is inevitable.

Define "reasonable". Is that some number you personally pick? Is that based on what STO was pushing through pre-LRT configuration? Or is that based on some kind of capacity constraint through the streets?

There is merit to talking about STO subbing at Bayview. But that involves more than just the bridge. STO will have to undergo massive redesigns on their routes to ensure that routes can more efficiently service Bayview. And this would be massive. Are we even sure that OC Tranpo has planned for (let alone budgeted) such a massive bus transfer terminal at Bayview?

Lastly, you seem to be forgetting that ridership is not immutable. Make the commute worse and people may well choose to drive instead. The goal should be to make transit as frictionless as possible. Take your suggestion to its extreme conclusion. Ban all STO buses from downtown Ottawa. Now imagine 60 000 extra commuters coming by car instead and most of them as single occupant vehicles.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The thing is, pretty well the majority of Ottawans who don't live within walking distance to the LRT will have to transfer to get downtown. Why would transferring be such a hardship for the commuters of Gatineau?

Transferring is not the issue. Many STO users have to do that today when transfer from local bus to Rapibus. It's the unnecessary additional transfer that will be the issue, when you move a portion of the buses to serve Bayview. If not additional transfer, all you'll be doing is adding delays at the transfer point while they wait for buses heading downtown.

And all this for what? OC Transpo is not saying there's a problem on Albert and Slater. The City of Ottawa is not saying there's an issue. STO is not saying there's an issue.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Let's at least get a handle on how much it would cost to refurbish the bridge and build a simple platform on the Hull end before we condemn it as too much money.

That's fair. And they should definitely do that study.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

No. Ottawa is spending 5 billion dollars to increase throughput through the downtown core, because that's where it was capacity constrained. More room for pedestrians and cyclists is a byproduct. It was never even a moderately primary consideration. .

I suppose being the second selling point in the business case isn't primary enough?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I suppose being the second selling point in the business case isn't primary enough?

One consideration among many. Primary consideration? Definitely not. No city spend $5.7 billion on transit to improve pedestrian conditions on two streets.

Moreover, the specific goal was "reduced congestion downtown". And with a >60% drop in the number of buses on Albert and Slater, I think we can say that will be achieved.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

One consideration among many. Primary consideration? Definitely not. No city spend $5.7 billion on transit to improve pedestrian conditions on two streets.

Moreover, the specific goal was "reduced congestion downtown". And with a >60% drop in the number of buses on Albert and Slater, I think we can say that will be achieved.

Fact: All transit users become pedestrians when they exit a train or bus.
It's pointless to increase transit throughput without a commensurate improvement in pedestrian facilities.

I don't understand the resistance to extending Rapibus to Bayview. It's just a creation of a new alternative. Not all buses have to use it and nobody is forcing anyone to take a route that leads there if that's not where you want to go. I'm sure it will be useful for enough people. Not everyone is averse to transfers to travel 1 to 3 stations on a train, people do it daily in Montreal and Toronto without batting an eyelash. Eventually we'll all have to graduate to big boy transit pants and not be overly dependent on the "public service school bus" arrangement.

[lrt's friend]

I am totally bewildered by this discussion. Some are missing the point.

While most from Ottawa will have a single transfer to reach downtown using the Confederation Line, what we are suggesting would add a second transfer if they are coming from Gatineau, otherwise the entire Rapibus route network will need to be abandoned and returned to direct service from every neighbourhood. I am sure that will not work with a Bayview bus terminal (too many different routes),

When it comes to sending some routes to Bayview and some to continue to downtown Ottawa, how do we chose which routes go where? Surely the routes that go to Bayview will be much less popular because it is not a major destination in itself and because of the present STO network, there is little Gatineau ridership going deep into Ottawa.

Then there is the issue of who pays for large numbers of Gatineau riders to use the Confederation Line ? As an Ottawa taxpayer, I will not be too pleased to be subsidizing Gatineau riders and filling our trains. Unifying our transit system seems to be the only way that this would be reasonable and I don't see that on the horizon.

It is laudible to want to remove buses from downtown Ottawa, however, we kid ourselves if we think that new unfilled road space will be filled by pedestrians and bikes. We are actually mostly making room for more cars and trucks. Perhaps, if we make transit too awkward, this may be a blessing.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am totally bewildered by this discussion. Some are missing the point.

And I am bewildered by your bewilderment. So if the Rapibus gets converted to rail and uses the PoW bridge, a transfer at Bayview suddenly and magically becomes acceptable? Every other dreamed-up transit plan including the city's own seems to show this as a link, so it's good enough for a fantasy LRT but not for BRT?

If you lived in Ottawa and worked in Gatineau you have no option but to transfer to a bus that shuttles you over. This no-transfer STO loop is one-sided, I doubt it is configured to be convenient for them.

If a simple transfer gives some commuters here the case of the vapours and sends them reaching for their car keys, let's see how long before bridge traffic and parking fees completely negate that thought.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Then there is the issue of who pays for large numbers of Gatineau riders to use the Confederation Line ? As an Ottawa taxpayer, I will not be too pleased to be subsidizing Gatineau riders and filling our trains.

This is a song by the Tragically Myopic. Who do you think pays for maintaining bus infrastructure through downtown Ottawa, keeping them free of snow and ice through the winter? Do you think it is cheaper than having extra passengers use a train that is being built with ample capacity for decades of ridership growth?

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is laudible to want to remove buses from downtown Ottawa, however, we kid ourselves if we think that new unfilled road space will be filled by pedestrians and bikes. We are actually mostly making room for more cars and trucks. .

I guess you haven't been participating in any of the Ottawa Downtown Moves discussions. This is on record as the city's intention, and it's up to citizens to remain vigilant that it remains so and gets implemented.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you need to be mindful to not upset the apple cart too much. (This applies to people anywhere - not just Gatineau people working in Ottawa.)

Just because some Ottawans would like fewer buses on their downtown streets doesn't mean the STO routings to downtown Ottawa should be made inconvenient to the point where a bunch of people write off transit and start taking their cars.

That would be defeating the purpose and cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Seriously, this.

I do not understand the hostility so many in Ottawa, from city council to the NCC to the general public, have towards STO buses, or buses in general, in downtown Ottawa. That's what they are for!

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

One consideration among many. Primary consideration? Definitely not. No city spend $5.7 billion on transit to improve pedestrian conditions on two streets.

Moreover, the specific goal was "reduced congestion downtown". And with a >60% drop in the number of buses on Albert and Slater, I think we can say that will be achieved.

Well, on Albert and Slater, anyway.

The city continues to be uninterested in doing anything to improve the congestion and transit situation on Bank, Rideau, etc.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I guess you haven't been participating in any of the Ottawa Downtown Moves discussions. This is on record as the city's intention, and it's up to citizens to remain vigilant that it remains so and gets implemented.

For my part, I stopped being interested in Ottawa Downtown Moves when it became clear it had little to do with movement in downtown Ottawa, but was largely an exercise driven by sanctimonious cyclists. The whole thing is devoted to adding cycling lanes to Albert and Slater, and has no vision for doing anything about the increasingly nightmarish local transit circulation within the core.