Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Unless Moncton somehow steals the first Atlantic Canadian franchise, I think we're at least 50 years away from Moncton becoming the second city in the region with a team.

On interesting prospect would be to have a joint atlantic CFL team (i.e. shared between Moncton and Halifax). That would boost the fan base but would however require the construction of 2 new stadiums and reduce the revenue collected at both of them, so it's most likely not economically feasible.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

On interesting prospect would be to have a joint atlantic CFL team (i.e. shared between Moncton and Halifax). That would boost the fan base but would however require the construction of 2 new stadiums and reduce the revenue collected at both of them, so it's most likely not economically feasible.

They're having a hard enough time getting one stadium built out there, let alone two.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

On interesting prospect would be to have a joint atlantic CFL team (i.e. shared between Moncton and Halifax). That would boost the fan base but would however require the construction of 2 new stadiums and reduce the revenue collected at both of them, so it's most likely not economically feasible.

Please god no.

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Built for a different time...Are we really as a country embarrassed by this?

THF is similar to MAPFRE in Columbus - a couple of grandstands with little else. At least THF is in an urban area...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

THF is similar to MAPFRE in Columbus - a couple of grandstands with little else. At least THF is in an urban area...

That is certainly one of THF's redeeming qualities.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by esquire

That is certainly one of THF's redeeming qualities.

Lol, setting the bar low.

Other redeeming qualities:
-It has seats, many NCAA stadiums do not
-It has a team, some nice stadiums do not (*couch* Olympic Stadium *cough*)
-It has clean water, some third world stadiums do not
...

I hate it, sorry.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Lol, setting the bar low.

Other redeeming qualities:
-It has seats, many NCAA stadiums do not
-It has a team, some nice stadiums do not (*couch* Olympic Stadium *cough*)
-It has clean water, some third world stadiums do not
...

I hate it, sorry.

it sucks too because this side isnt bad at all



If they would have done something a little bit better on the other side with something to tie the 2 together in the endzones it could be something special

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Please god no.

The shared team idea is weird because the stadium itself is the main thing holding back the CFL in the Maritimes. It's been hard to get 1 stadium built and that plan requires 2.

The long-term demographics to be honest are not very favourable to Moncton either because it has a relatively small population. The outlying areas that would be more important for a team there than a Halifax team are stagnant or declining. In 1950 these markets were dominated by rural areas; in 2000 this was marginal and in 2050 the rural areas will not be very important at all unless something dramatic changes. Over the past 3 years, Halifax added 15,000 people, Moncton added 5,000 people, and Saint John was -300. Many rural counties lost population. This pattern has persisted for decades. In the future I think economic development in the Maritimes is increasingly going to be concentrated in areas near the Halifax-Moncton corridor, with the two (small) exceptions being Fredericton and Charlottetown because they are capitals. Saint John and Sydney have been the unfortunate losers in this arrangement.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

The shared team idea is weird because the stadium itself is the main thing holding back the CFL in the Maritimes. It's been hard to get 1 stadium built and that plan requires 2.

The stadium is what's holding Halifax back - Moncton is held back due to size, as its stadium would simply have to be renovated and expanded to be suitable if the metro were large enough.

Originally Posted by someone123

The long-term demographics to be honest are not very favourable to Moncton either because it has a relatively small population. The outlying areas that would be more important for a team there than a Halifax team are stagnant or declining.

Firstly, nowhere in Atlantic Canada can compete with Metro Halifax's growth, let's just get that out of the way.

Secondly, Halifax can host a franchise without having to rely on the Wolfvilles or Bridgewaters, but the notion that Moncton could host a team today is wishful thinking at best anyway. Why people compare the two is beyond me. If Moncton doubled in size overnight it would theoretically double periphery places like Sackville and Shediac, let alone the impact this would have on nearby PEI.

Originally Posted by someone123

Over the past 3 years, Halifax added 15,000 people, Moncton added 5,000 people, and Saint John was -300.

SJ plays little to no role in this whatsoever outside of some potential periphery STHs. I know people like to hype up the idea of fans travelling long distances but I really don't see the upside in relying on this for attendance at games or merchandising.

Originally Posted by someone123

In the future I think economic development in the Maritimes is increasingly going to be concentrated in areas near the Halifax-Moncton corridor, with the two (small) exceptions being Fredericton and Charlottetown because they are capitals.

I've long said that the Southern NB (Fredericton-SJ-Moncton triangle) combined with PEI and the corridor towards Halifax are the only growth areas in the region (and the numbers from 2016 back that up). NB's stagnant population at times doesn't show the deeper numbers at work, which are the three cities still growing (SJ likes to do the opposite, at times) despite the rural populations emptying out. Southeastern NB (Moncton) accounted for 23% of NB's population in 1991, and today is closer to 30%. Northern, rural NB drags down most of NB's population and demographic numbers.

What we're seeing in NB and NS is a centralization of the population as older residents move into the cities and older rural residents move on. Centralizing populations in urban centres makes life easier for governments, businesses, etc. as it's easier to tap into central markets without having to rely on people commuting or driving long distances, and makes things like sports teams easier sells.

It'll take time, but eventually Moncton will be over a third of NB's representative population, which still won't be enough for a CFL franchise anyway.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The stadium is what's holding Halifax back - Moncton is held back due to size, as its stadium would simply have to be renovated and expanded to be suitable if the metro were large enough.

It is a little weird though how on the one hand people talk about how Halifax's hurdle is to build a $120-300M stadium, but Moncton's $20-30M stadium is often assumed to be approximately ready to go with some minor alterations. I think if you accept that Moncton has something resembling a CFL-ready stadium then you also have to accept that something modest in Halifax would be sufficient. Maybe a $70M stadium. That was almost built there a couple years ago. The city's capital budget is in the $200M range annually. $100M is a medium-sized project of the type that is built every couple of years, not something for which the stars need to align. A $500M-1B project in Halifax is large in local terms and really does require a lot of coordination (but would not necessarily in a city like Toronto).

If you say that a new CFL team needs a $150M stadium then you are arguing that Moncton's existing stadium does not constitute a significant advantage. In fact the current stadium may almost not be worth converting since it has a track.

Firstly, nowhere in Atlantic Canada can compete with Metro Halifax's growth, let's just get that out of the way.

I'm used to people freaking out on here if you admit that Halifax isn't just one of many similar cities in Atlantic Canada, so I try to avoid pointing it out. The reality is it's becoming or has already become an economic capital for the region similar to what's happened in a bunch of other parts of Canada. The fact that Moncton is now #2 in the Maritimes is partly a consequence of that. Debating where to put a CFL team in the Maritimes isn't that far off from debating where to put one in Ontario or Quebec. Maybe there is a thread somewhere where people argue that NHL teams should move to Drummondville or Hamilton.

Maybe this will be interpreted as a shameless cheerleader post but it's based on data. If Halifax were 1.5x the size of the next-biggest city instead of 3x I'd have a different opinion.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is a little weird though how on the one hand people talk about Halifax's hurdle is to build a $120-300M stadium, but Moncton's $20-30M stadium is often assumed to be approximately ready to go with some minor alterations.

FWIW former Commish Cohon said it would take 100 million to get it up to standards.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is a little weird though how on the one hand people talk about Halifax's hurdle is to build a $120-300M stadium, but Moncton's $20-30M stadium is often assumed to be approximately ready to go with some minor alterations.

Minor in this sense would still be ~$75M anyway, i'd assume. Moncton already at least has the land and skeleton for a stadium potentially suitable for a team, even if the surrounding metropolitan area is not. The new Downtown Arena is $100M.

Originally Posted by someone123

I think if you accept that Moncton has something resembling a CFL-ready stadium then you also have to accept that something modest in Halifax would be sufficient.

Moncton's stadium isn't CFL-ready - it has a base to be CFL-ready.

I keep saying that a smaller, modest 20K stadium would work for Halifax. Requiring 24K is a bit too much, IMO. 24K is an average attendance in the CFL and Halifax would be the smallest market by a fair margin.

Originally Posted by someone123

Maybe a $70M stadium. That was almost built there a couple years ago. The city's capital budget is in the $200M range annually. $100M is a medium-sized project of the type that is built every couple of years, not something for which the stars need to align.

I think it's feasible as long as it stays around $100M. Anything more gets to be a bit too much. Anything north of that makes me question government or private interests ability to fund it.

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm used to people freaking out on here if you admit that Halifax isn't just one of many similar cities in Atlantic Canada, so I try to avoid pointing it out.

It's the Toronto of the Maritimes and it's not even particularly close. Anyone trying to lift any other city in the region to Halifax's standard is cheerleading.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I keep saying that a smaller, modest 20K stadium would work for Halifax. Requiring 24K is a bit too much, IMO. 24K is an average attendance in the CFL and Halifax would be the smallest market by a fair margin.

Halifax is a bit less than 2x the size of the current smallest market.

Originally Posted by elly63

I give Frankie credit for uncovering this years ago. Hamilton was considering a design similar to Apogee Stadium (University of North Texas cap 30,850/cost $78 Million US - 2011)

Pretty much impossible in Canada. No freeze-thaw cycle and much cheaper labour available. This is one of those "non-comparable" sumouthern US stadiums someone recently mentioned.

THF is basically the Canadian "bare-bones" version of that... but with a smaller capacity and double the price tag.