Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Acajack]

I remember the signs at the entrances to the city that said: Edmonton - City of Champions.

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I remember the signs at the entrances to the city that said: Edmonton - City of Champions.

NSFW

[Black Star]

I guess these people are used to doing this in front of their homes in the trailer park.

[WhipperSnapper]

Guys with their pants around their ankles are amateurs or aren't well endowed.

[SaskScraper]

the guys with pants around their ankles are standing the farthest back and still hitting the sign, impressive in my books

the only city in the country where the urine scent of the city sign matches the city itself
..besides Toronto of course..

[tomthumb2]

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis
Breaking: Ken King drops bombshell, saying owners no longer going to pursue new arena in Calgary.

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis
King: "It's time we stopped pretending."

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis
King: "we will operate as long as we can."

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis
King spoke to Mayor and determined the city has no genuine interest in helping build a building. Talks over.

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis
King re future of Flames in Calgary: "I don't know what this means."

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis \
King on the city's stance re a new rink: "their message is it's not going to work"

... what a goddamn dumpster fire...

[Black Star]

Ice District will be 'like nothing in North America,' says Katz Group Real Estate

BY JURIS GRANEY
FIRST POSTED: TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 2017 02:58 PM MDT | UPDATED: TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 2017 03:26 PM MDT

Edmonton media were given the chance to tour the 25-acre downtown Ice District redevelopment Tuesday morning. Reporter Juris Graney tagged along to see how the site is taking shape.

How’s it looking out there?

Construction work at Canada’s largest mixed-use sports and entertainment district is busy. Very busy. And that brings a lot of joy to Glen Scott, president of Katz Group Real Estate.



http://www.edmontonsun.com/2017/09/1...up-real-estate

[wave46]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis
Breaking: Ken King drops bombshell, saying owners no longer going to pursue new arena in Calgary.

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis
King: "It's time we stopped pretending."

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis
King: "we will operate as long as we can."

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis
King spoke to Mayor and determined the city has no genuine interest in helping build a building. Talks over.

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis
King re future of Flames in Calgary: "I don't know what this means."

Eric Francis‏ @EricFrancis \
King on the city's stance re a new rink: "their message is it's not going to work"

... what a goddamn dumpster fire...

Oooh, scorched earth tactics! Either the city falls for it and suddenly a deal gets done, or the team threatens to move. Hopefully it is the latter and the city doesn't cave in to demands, so that all the bluffing by the ownership is revealed for what it is.

[elly63]

Calgary civic election October 16

Eric Francis @EricFrancis
Bettman on what Calgarians can do now: "You need to make your voice heard if you think the city is moving in the wrong direction."

[The Fisher Account]

Ken King needs to go

[Black Star]

I dont envy my Calgary brothers when it comes to this. Its a shit sandwich and everyone has to take a bite.

[osmo]

Look what happens with Seattle not giving in to greedy owners to build them a public funded rink. Yes some heartache but now a private group is coming in to build Seattle rink as they know they will make money. For Calgary, if King can't build it let him sell to someone who will build a rink.

[logan5]

Key Arena should be ready to take an NHL team in 2020. Maybe the Flames will end up there.

Do these owners really need public hand-outs? The value of these franchises goes up by hundreds of millions of dollars in just a few years. Sleazebucket Daryl Katz bought the Oilers in 2008, and in that short 9 year time frame the Oilers franchise valuation went from 170 million to 445 million dollars. Poor owners...

[Black Star]

Originally Posted by logan5

Key Arena should be ready to take an NHL team in 2020. Maybe the Flames will end up there.

Do these owners really need public hand-outs? The value of these franchises goes up by hundreds of millions of dollars in just a few years. Sleazebucket Daryl Katz bought the Oilers in 2008, and in that short 9 year time frame the Oilers franchise valuation went from 170 million to 445 million dollars. Poor owners...

Slezebucket lol.

You just said that...then went on to amplify his generous business acquisition. Good for him. I would like that kind of return.

And this is what has transpired since The so called Slezbucket has bought the team.

Cost of the arena is $480 million, $130 million paid by the Katz Group, $125 million paid for by a ticket tax on all tickets sold at the venue and $200 million from the City and $25 million from other levels of government for the second ice surface/community rink to be used for the public and nearby university. The City's portion will be paid via a Community Revitalization Zone Levy (CRL) and other extra revenue like parking. Note that there was no tax rate increase in order to pay for any part of the arena.

The philosophy behind the CRL program is:

Major revitalization projects attract and increase local activity, investment and development. Economic growth creates additional tax revenue for all orders of government. Additional municipal and provincial property taxes from the economic growth will help fund the original project.

The amount of new tax revenue that the lands in and around the arena will make for the City on an annual basis, FAR exceeds the $200 million that the City has seeded into this project. There is currently over $2.5 billion in construction going on in the Arena district itself including a 50+ floor hotel (might be as high as 60), 62 floor office/condo (might be as high as 70), a 29 floor office and other retail businesses including a grocer, movie theater complex, restaurants, bars, etc. This district has fast forwarded many new condo high rises that have been announced since the arena was started and would not have existed without the new arena.

The CRL funding forecasts are based on only 40% of the growth predicted in Rollo’s conservative model, and still the CRL was calculated to generate, in net present value, $473 million in new taxes over 20 years.

So how investing $200 million in this multi billion district, getting almost $500 million in new taxation revenue (maybe more) AND revitalizing the city's downtown at the same time is a bad deal?

Now more than 5 Billion in new construction is being built downtown.

And many more millions if not Billions on the way.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Black Star

So how investing $200 million in this multi billion district, getting almost $500 million in new taxation revenue (maybe more) AND revitalizing the city's downtown at the same time is a bad deal?

Now more than 5 Billion in new construction is being built downtown.

And many more millions if not Billions on the way.

The question is (and always has been), would the growth have occurred anyways, without the arena?

In Calgary's case, the rink is already downtown, so it's not like they're moving crowds into the city from the far-flung suburbs. Also, Calgary's growth downtown has always has grown in spurts and fits, mostly contingent upon the energy sector's health.

I'm still on the skeptical side with respect to public funds for private benefit.

[speedog]

Technically, the Saddledome is not downtown. Nearby but not downtown.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by wave46

The question is (and always has been), would the growth have occurred anyways, without the arena?

Yes, the growth would have happened without the arena. These owners just like to tie arenas/stadiums to developments to make it seem like it's an essential ingredient to the mix. There's absolutely no reason why an arena is required for other developments to occur. It's all BS and cities should stop falling for it.

It's been shown plenty of times and has been proven in studies that arenas/stadiums do very little for the local economy. Sure, if you're going to build it - you should optimize the situation by putting it in the best location possible (usually downtown)... but the idea that it will provide a noticeable boost to the economy is a myth.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Black Star

[/COLOR]

Slezebucket lol.

You just said that...then went on to amplify his generous business acquisition. Good for him. I would like that kind of return.

And this is what has transpired since The so called Slezbucket has bought the team.

Cost of the arena is $480 million, $130 million paid by the Katz Group, $125 million paid for by a ticket tax on all tickets sold at the venue and $200 million from the City and $25 million from other levels of government for the second ice surface/community rink to be used for the public and nearby university. The City's portion will be paid via a Community Revitalization Zone Levy (CRL) and other extra revenue like parking. Note that there was no tax rate increase in order to pay for any part of the arena.

The philosophy behind the CRL program is:

Major revitalization projects attract and increase local activity, investment and development. Economic growth creates additional tax revenue for all orders of government. Additional municipal and provincial property taxes from the economic growth will help fund the original project.

The amount of new tax revenue that the lands in and around the arena will make for the City on an annual basis, FAR exceeds the $200 million that the City has seeded into this project. There is currently over $2.5 billion in construction going on in the Arena district itself including a 50+ floor hotel (might be as high as 60), 62 floor office/condo (might be as high as 70), a 29 floor office and other retail businesses including a grocer, movie theater complex, restaurants, bars, etc. This district has fast forwarded many new condo high rises that have been announced since the arena was started and would not have existed without the new arena.

The CRL funding forecasts are based on only 40% of the growth predicted in Rollo’s conservative model, and still the CRL was calculated to generate, in net present value, $473 million in new taxes over 20 years.

So how investing $200 million in this multi billion district, getting almost $500 million in new taxation revenue (maybe more) AND revitalizing the city's downtown at the same time is a bad deal?

Now more than 5 Billion in new construction is being built downtown.

And many more millions if not Billions on the way.

$2.5 billion currently in the arena district? Holy inflation batman! Yes, all construction in the downtown can be attributed to the arena because there's nothing like it anywhere. I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

[osmo]

Nobody needs to breakdown Edmonton's CRL program as many have heard the public officials with their monorail Simpsons pitch before. It isn't revolutionary one bit. The USA is full of Tax increment schemes that all ended up blowing up in the public's face.

There is mountains of examples and research that TIFs don't work. You just take development that would of happnes anyhow and channel it to a certain area (with an large subsidy attached that was not needed). All that could of been achieved with zoning changes for the cost of a council meeting.

I know Tax increment financing well as I've done research on the matter. Projects all in the rust belt, many I visited, none have made money or hit their original targets.

A few examples:

Philly:
http://planphilly.com/articles/2013/...-than-expected

Detroit and multiple examples in Michigan:
http://www.mlive.com/politics/index....ng_author.html

And no... Edmonton's plan isn't any smarter, It is all the same bogus cloud math when used with these things.

[WhipperSnapper]

broke down the big ones to see if $2.5 billion is possible. these aren't conservative by any means.
Arena (completed) say $500 million
CofE Tower (completed) say $350 million
Stantec (under construction) say $550 million
Marriott/Legend (under construction) say $350 million