Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think it would be a raw, unfinished concrete ledge without lighting, PA, safety systems, etc. until time to expand.

It's not like it would be expensive to finish the entire platform. 80m finished platform vs 100m finished platform probably amounts to less than 0.5% of the total line's budget.

[mezzanine]

I'm guessing bc of the ongoing expense to service the extra extension (eg, lighting, trash, cleaning), which is entirely on translink, not Ottawa/Victoria.

japan may leave unused sections unlit and 'roped off', not walled off, but expectations may be different (eg, unlit sections in Canada being deemed 'unsafe' by passengers, being a magnet for litter, etc)

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Hooknose]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I can't say anything that isn't already public.

I can say that the new stations will have (at minimum) 80 M platforms, because that is what is needed to hold a Mk I 6 car train, and this is an extension of the Millennium Line. With the high cost of using cut & cover to dig up the streets to renovate and extend the underground stations in order to extend the platforms 20 M, it would in the long run be cheaper to build the 100 M platforms as part of the initial construction and cover up the extra 20M until longer trains are needed - just like Canada Line has done. Of course, the rest of the older stations will also need their platforms extended to 100 M before the longer trains can be running.

Well, the great news is that the new stations are 80 meters - at least. What a relief to know that the wonderful people who made sure that the Canada Line would never be able to handle more traffic than they encountered on opening day got sidelined.

If it costs just 1/2 of one percent to make them 100 instead of 80, Then it could have cost only 1 or 1.5% more for the Canada line to have the same 80 or 100 meter platforms.

Thanks for the news, it is great news and show us that someone , somewhere in Translink has learned at least something.

[Hooknose]

What people don't get about the Millennium line is that it will encounter network effects, along the lines of Metcalf's law. With the line to Arbutus built, the ML will have three regional centres, a gazzilion new condos, two large areas for tech (Mount Pleasant and Lake City), connections to the airport, the provinces main medical centres, and one university (SFU). When it finally goes ot UBC, you add a second university and the 550 start ups that are clustered there now.

Metcalf's law says that when you add anything to one part of the line, the value of the whole line goes up. In other words, adding UBC and its start ups increases the value of the line al the way along as well as all real estate within the proverbial 500 meters of a station.

Everytime a new building is added anywhere along the ML, the value of the whole network goes up as the possibilities for new combinations (where to live , where to work, etc) goes up.

The 80 meter stations are great news (provision to go to one hundred is even better news).

My prediction : Fully built, people will start to live on the Line because they simply will not need to go anywhere else You won't need a car. You will buy one annual transit pass and travel back and forth, as and when you please, totally free of traffic and hassles.

The ML will be an artery that will cut right across the city and, perhaps in time, be more important than lines that go downtown.

Thanks again for the info

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Hooknose

If it costs just 1/2 of one percent to make them 100 instead of 80, Then it could have cost only 1 or 1.5% more for the Canada line to have the same 80 or 100 meter platforms.

I think the 0.5% figure was based on the cost to finish the extra 20m of platform, not to build it. Making the station 25% longer is going to add something close to 25% of the station cost, especially with a cut-and-cover construction method where much of the cost is in the excavation. And while I'm no transit construction expert, I've gotta believe that the cost of the stations is a pretty significant portion of the overall budget.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I think the 0.5% figure was based on the cost to finish the extra 20m of platform, not to build it. Making the station 25% longer is going to add something close to 25% of the station cost, especially with a cut-and-cover construction method where much of the cost is in the excavation. And while I'm no transit construction expert, I've gotta believe that the cost of the stations is a pretty significant portion of the overall budget.

Yeah, I was talking about finishing the platform. The difference between building an entire station at 80m and 100m is likely around 10% or more.

The cost of finishing a platform (floors, tiles, lighting, etc) is likely less than 0.5% of the total budget for a station considering you already excavated, poured concrete, have cabling, etc done already.

[Hooknose]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Yeah, I was talking about finishing the platform. The difference between building an entire station at 80m and 100m is likely around 10% or more.

The cost of finishing a platform (floors, tiles, lighting, etc) is likely less than 0.5% of the total budget for a station considering you already excavated, poured concrete, have cabling, etc done already.

The numbers just posted make sense. Thanks for posting them.
The issue is really that for a few percent more, you can prepare the line for double the capacity.
Plan for 100 meters, build just 40 meters if you have to fool yourself that this is a real saving but provide for expansion at 1/2 of 1% for each additional 20 meters when the reality of just how popular this line will be, finally sinks in at "headquarters".

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

Good luck with that.

Nah I think it's pretty likely the BC LINO Government will fund these projects especially with Ottawa putting the money on the table.

It's very bad optics not to.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Hooknose

The numbers just posted make sense. Thanks for posting them.
The issue is really that for a few percent more, you can prepare the line for double the capacity.
Plan for 100 meters, build just 40 meters if you have to fool yourself that this is a real saving but provide for expansion at 1/2 of 1% for each additional 20 meters when the reality of just how popular this line will be, finally sinks in at "headquarters".

40m can't be built for the M-Line extension since SkyTrain already has 80m trains running.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Hooknose

The numbers just posted make sense. Thanks for posting them.
The issue is really that for a few percent more, you can prepare the line for double the capacity.
Plan for 100 meters, build just 40 meters if you have to fool yourself that this is a real saving but provide for expansion at 1/2 of 1% for each additional 20 meters when the reality of just how popular this line will be, finally sinks in at "headquarters".

Originally Posted by Jebby

40m can't be built for the M-Line extension since SkyTrain already has 80m trains running.

this^^^

only the Canada-Line can have less-than 80m platforms while not hindering capacity AS MUCH as it would on the E & M lines. Canada-Line trains are wider which is why trains can be shorter.

all platforms on the E & M-Line should probably be built to 120m realistically so that the stations never need to be renovated for ~1/2 a century.

[GilmoreStation]

Now that the CRA is going to phase out tax credit from monthly transit passes, they will use the extra tax revenue to build the Millenium Line extension

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by GilmoreStation

Now that the CRA is going to phase out tax credit from monthly transit passes, they will use the extra tax revenue to build the Millenium Line extension

The $200M/year that the tax break cost the government? Across the country? Sure...

[jbrizzy]

Keep in mind, once the renovation of Metrotown station is done it will be impossible to extend the platform in either direction to make it longer than 80 metres... I don't think there'll be any interest in tearing it all down in the next 30-40 years at least.. There's still room to add 5th cars when capacity needs to be increased.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[WarrenC12]

80m trains at <90s headway is "plenty". Once that hits capacity, other lines should be created or upgraded to offset load, as mentioned by others here.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

80m trains at <90s headway is "plenty". Once that hits capacity, other lines should be created or upgraded to offset load, as mentioned by others here.

Once you reach the 25,000pphpd capacity with trains and frequency it makes more sense to build a parallel line since you'd probably have to substantially upgrade every station to handle additional loads.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Once you reach the 25,000pphpd capacity with trains and frequency it makes more sense to build a parallel line since you'd probably have to substantially upgrade every station to handle additional loads.

I agree with this. By then, there will be enough demand for rapid transit on the 41st avenue corridor, which will relieve both the Millennium Line and Expo Line (partially).

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

I agree with this. By then, there will be enough demand for rapid transit on the 41st avenue corridor, which will relieve both the Millennium Line and Expo Line (partially).

Or a Hastings Line relieve Downtown demand from the Expo and Canada Lines. The line can the turn north-south to connect with Brentwood and Metrotown as well.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by jbrizzy

Keep in mind, once the renovation of Metrotown station is done it will be impossible to extend the platform in either direction to make it longer than 80 metres... I don't think there'll be any interest in tearing it all down in the next 30-40 years at least.. There's still room to add 5th cars when capacity needs to be increased.

I thought the Metrotown station renovations were essentially enabling a 100m platform for that station? Are you sure about that?