Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[officedweller]

Back in about 1993 (when the Surrey Extension opened), there was Province newspaper article saying that BC Transit (at the time) was examining
a SkyTrain crossing to the North Shore near Seconds Narrows (and Boundary Road SkyTrain Line) because commuters from the North Shore
are not necessarily destined for downtown Vancouver. (Remember that's before the Millennium Line was built).

In the Fantasy Realm - a Hastings Line with a branch along Option 4 to the North Shore (but where do you go from Lonsdale?)
and the other branch heading east on Hastings would be interesting.

Note that a Second Narrows crossing could also serve the SeyLynn area and provide service all along the North Shore.

Originally Posted by waves

With the recent news of the CNV mayor wanting Skytrain to the North Shore. I thought I would go about and do some analysis of a few possible options:

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by officedweller

In the Fantasy Realm - a Hastings Line with a branch along Option 4 to the North Shore (but where do you go from Lonsdale?)
and the other branch heading east on Hastings would be interesting.

Note that a Second Narrows crossing could also serve the SeyLynn area and provide service all along the North Shore.

A crossing at second narrows that goes through Lonsdale and terminates at Park Royal might be something that could eventually come to fruition.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by waves

With the recent news of the CNV mayor wanting Skytrain to the North Shore. I thought I would go about and do some analysis of a few possible options:

looking at the image again, why not extend the Canada line north under the west side of the Seabus terminal, then curve east past the NW corner of the Centerm terminal, then follow the eastern edge of the harbour basin until you are lined up with Lonsdale, and then head north up Lonsdale?

[officedweller]

The Canada Line isn't deep enough for that.
Here's the relative elevation and distance from the water of the Canada Line Station
from the Granville Street Extension Report:


http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&e...kaGroX5SEcHA&sig2=LyNfTH6EF6f1IMhQPTM2xw

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

A crossing at second narrows that goes through Lonsdale and terminates at Park Royal might be something that could eventually come to fruition.

That's probably the best service plan for the North Shore, even if it does mean a longer commute for West Vancouverites.

[Reecemartin]

Sometimes for the sake of money, something has to give.

[officedweller]

Change of topic, but I mentioned in the Canada Line thread that I'd post the Branchline article from when the M-Line opened.

Here it is.


https://bytownrailwaysociety.ca/index.php/branchline/branchline-pdf-files


https://bytownrailwaysociety.ca/index.php/branchline/branchline-pdf-files


https://bytownrailwaysociety.ca/index.php/branchline/branchline-pdf-files


https://bytownrailwaysociety.ca/index.php/branchline/branchline-pdf-files


https://bytownrailwaysociety.ca/index.php/branchline/branchline-pdf-files


https://bytownrailwaysociety.ca/index.php/branchline/branchline-pdf-files


https://bytownrailwaysociety.ca/index.php/branchline/branchline-pdf-files

[nname]

Ranking the Millennium Line Stations:
1. Commercial-Broadway
2. Lougheed Town Centre
3. Production Way-University
4. Brentwood
5. Gilmore
6. Coquitlam Central
7. VCC-Clark
8. Renfrew
9. Burquitlam
10. Lincoln
11. Holdom
12. Rupert
13. Lafarge Lake – Douglas
14. Moody Centre
15. Sperling
16. Inlet Centre
17. Lake City Way

To give a bit of perspective, from 2011 data, rank 1 receive more ridership than all other non-Evergreen stations combined. Rank 1 got 3x as much rider as rank 2, which in turn tripled rank 3. The difference between rank 3-4, 5-8, 11-15 is pretty much like rounding errors... Lake City and most likely Sea Island Centre are still in a league of their own...

Except for Lafarge, the ranking for the new stations are quite close to what I observed... I thought the Evergreen stations are busier.. I guess that might be cause by the fact that traffic is pretty much only go in one direction there, except for Burquitlam.

Using the 2011 station boarding data and assume there is no big change in ridership for the stations... then Coquitlam Central would be similar to Royal Oak and Lansdowne; Burquitlam and Lincoln would be similar to Aberdeen and Olympic Village; the other 3 stations would be similar to Templeton...

If Lincoln was not built and assume everyone there take train from Coquitlam Central instead, then Coquitlam Central could go up to 3rd place in the list, with ridership similar to 29th Ave and King Edward... If combine all three stations at Coquitlam City Centre, then it should be similar to the ridership of King George and Richmond-Brighouse, assuming no ridership loss.

Of course, these speculation are all coming from comparing this ranking list with the one from 2011, so it is possible that it is way off by now

SkyTrain Daily Ridership by Line:
Expo Line: 250,000
Canada Line: 130,000
Millennium Line: 70,000

Not sure the daily here meant "weekday" or just daily average. I wonder how would they distinguish Expo and Millennium Line ridership if a passenger board at.. say Lougheed and Production? Or a trip from Coquitlam to Metrotown?


(source)

[Reecemartin]

Assuming we see the Canada Line with more off peak growth and the M Line with more growth as Evergeen begins to make habits and some more growth on Expo we might see 500,000 riders per day in the not too distant future. And the we begin the ascension to 1 million!

One thing I've noticed about the Subway in Toronto and one thing that I imagine contributes to YUS alone carrying more than 700,000 riders per day is the significant ridership even off peak, I've gotten on trains late on week nights where people were actually standing.

How does Skytrain ridership look off peak?

[Bdawe]

only 70,000 riders on the January Millenium Line? I thought that the Millenium Line was up to 80,000 riders before Evergreen opened. 70,000 with evergreen actually sounds pretty bad (though Lougheed-Columbia riders are now expo riders, there were never very many of them)

[Alex Mackinnon]

I've got to say this highlights that the mayors were wrong in the 2000s. RAV was right to go ahead of Evergreen, even if it doesn't line up with where they want population growth.

Gordon Campbell knew the city well.

[Marshal]

This may or may not apply, but the codes/regulations are different for structures with interiors (enclosed space) and those without. I worked on two stations a long time ago, but I had nothing to do with those projects at this level. I am sure there are significant regulatory requirements for stations relative to their semi-assembly use; and I can recall HVAC and Fire being important technical design issues. (Can't believe I can't remember better . . . I will have to look into my notes.)

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Especially when you are operating at high frequencies it can sometime bring operational benefits to split the line. And a 3 minute transfer on a long journey isn't much. YUS makes somewhat more sense to have as one Line since it operates a similar parallel service pattern, and from the beginning was intended to be operated that way.

Can you back up this "operational benefits" claim. I do understand the parallel service point. Except, there has always been much more traffic on the Yonge line over University, and that level of parallel service could be reached between Expo-Hastings. Also, if the lack of parallel service between central Expo line and Surrey Expo Line is workable, I no longer see the point, because the Hastings route would just be an opposite end tail. And, sorry, "because something was built or intended "this way"" is a meaningless reason.

But, its all OK. Now that I think about it, this is an overblown conversation. I agree with many other things you have said . . . so, on we go amigo.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

only 70,000 riders on the January Millenium Line? I thought that the Millenium Line was up to 80,000 riders before Evergreen opened. 70,000 with evergreen actually sounds pretty bad (though Lougheed-Columbia riders are now expo riders, there were never very many of them)

Well, maybe half of Lougheed, Production, all of Braid, and Millennium's half of Columbia are now all Expo Line's riders... These stations are ranked 2, 5, 4, 3 respectively on the old Millennium Line...

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Can you back up this "operational benefits" claim. I do understand the parallel service point. Except, there has always been much more traffic on the Yonge line over University, and that level of parallel service could be reached between Expo-Hastings. Also, if the lack of parallel service between central Expo line and Surrey Expo Line is workable, I no longer see the point, because the Hastings route would just be an opposite end tail. And, sorry, "because something was built or intended "this way"" is a meaningless reason.

But, its all OK. Now that I think about it, this is an overblown conversation. I agree with many other things you have said . . . so, on we go amigo.

I'll admit operational benefits come down more to design but something's that come to mind are seperate power supply and the ability for schedules to not be aligned. Often times when a delay goes on on once place on the line it can propagate across the line, it's less of an issue with ATC but still something to consider.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I've got to say this highlights that the mayors were wrong in the 2000s. RAV was right to go ahead of Evergreen, even if it doesn't line up with where they want population growth.

Gordon Campbell knew the city well.

No kidding. But really, with an airport as closely located to downtown as ours, it's a no brainer IMO. A secondary line downtown was key as well, with a Yaletown stop (The Nelson proposal might have been good too).

The RAV line also has 2 big endpoints on the other side. That wasn't an option with Evergreen.

[Hooknose]

Just a suggestion ..

Any RR to the north Shore should terminate at the Upper Levels -with a bus exchange like the Phipps Exchange.

AT Cap Road, the land inside the two cloverleafs is government owned and more than enough to build a Phipps like exchange.

At Lonsdale and the Upper Levels, it might be a bit trickier but it also could be done.

From either, buses could fan out right across the North Shore bringing rapid, easy and relatively traffic free distribution from Horseshoe Bay and beyond to Phipps Ex at Iron workers, and beyond as well.

Instead of running along Marine Drive and reaching up into the inhabited areas, you run along the Upper Levels and reach down and up using shorter legs.

Instead of about two hour to reach Deep Cove from HB along Marine Drive, you might be able to do it 30 to 35 minutes.

Convenience and ease of use and speed makes for increased ridership - and I would guess we would all want that.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Hooknose

Just a suggestion ..

Any RR to the north Shore should terminate at the Upper Levels -with a bus exchange like the Phipps Exchange.

AT Cap Road, the land inside the two cloverleafs is government owned and more than enough to build a Phipps like exchange.

At Lonsdale and the Upper Levels, it might be a bit trickier but it also could be done.

From either, buses could fan out right across the North Shore bringing rapid, easy and relatively traffic free distribution from Horseshoe Bay and beyond to Phipps Ex at Iron workers, and beyond as well.

Instead of running along Marine Drive and reaching up into the inhabited areas, you run along the Upper Levels and reach down and up using shorter legs.

Instead of about two hour to reach Deep Cove from HB along Marine Drive, you might be able to do it 30 to 35 minutes.

Convenience and ease of use and speed makes for increased ridership - and I would guess we would all want that.

Sounds pretty solid to me, I would love to eventually see a skytrain to Squamish and Whistler. It could be 30+ years but with global warming making consistent winter conditions at ski hills like Grouse or those in the U.S. less and less likely (this year is an exception) Whistler will for sure see more business in the coming years and decades. In tow would be the residential development of course...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Or just cross at Second Narrows, snake it over to the SeaBus terminal and all the way up Lonsdale Avenue. Maybe add a spur through the Grand Boulevard park to Lynn Valley.

Originally Posted by retro_orange

Sounds pretty solid to me, I would love to eventually see a skytrain to Squamish and Whistler. It could be 30+ years but with global warming making consistent winter conditions at ski hills like Grouse or those in the U.S. less and less likely (this year is an exception) Whistler will for sure see more business in the coming years and decades. In tow would be the residential development of course...

Commuter rail, definitely, but SkyTrain? Way too far for a metro - might as well build a line to Kelowna.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Or just cross at Second Narrows, snake it over to the SeaBus terminal and all the way up Lonsdale Avenue. Maybe add a spur through the Grand Boulevard park to Lynn Valley.



Commuter rail, definitely, but SkyTrain? Way too far for a metro - might as well build a line to Kelowna.

Considering it would likely travel on the ground, at grade, following the highway 'right of way' outside of any dense areas, it wouldn't be all that much more expensive then running any sort of other rail line.

What makes skytrain more expensive is that it's in the sky, take it out of the sky and it's just an electric train.

You can't accurately forecast demand that far in the future. Besides, we have the site-C dam that we have to justify the cost of.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Or just cross at Second Narrows, snake it over to the SeaBus terminal and all the way up Lonsdale Avenue. Maybe add a spur through the Grand Boulevard park to Lynn Valley.

I think if you are to spend all the money to make it go across Burrard Inlet, you would want to at least extend it up to Central Lonsdale. Extending it to Lynn Valley may also make sense, but that really depends on how the DNV wants to develop it.