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  #16441  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2017, 7:19 PM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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It's pretty unlikely that this would go directly across the deepest part of the harbour.

Not many people know about it, but there is already a tunnel parallel to the Lions Gate Bridge carrying water from the Capilano Reservoir towards downtown. It's called the First Narrows Pressure Tunnel. That was built in 1930-1935. The alignment is from Capilano Rd. to Pipeline Rd. in Stanley Park.

Any tunnel would probably skirt the mid-harbour and follow one of the narrows.
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  #16442  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2017, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
You do realize those are essentially welfare programs for the poor?
No, they are vacant lots that will continue to be vacant lots because Vision Vancouver can't build units affordably.
I am in favour of social housing, and in favour of it being spread around the city just as I don't want to deal with homelessness by buying bus fare to another city. However, I care about people living hard getting the stability of a home and being surrounded by healthy people to get them moving forward. I don't give a damn if there's a TV news segment about opening housing that costs $1 million per unit in capital and $100,000 per unit per year to operate. That is offensive to me, worse than doing nothing at all it is deceitful and taking advantage of homeless people to project a positive identity on a politician.


The transportable homes they built and sited near Main and Terminal are interesting, but at the end of the day unless they have solved the cost issue there is no chance of them making up lost ground and will keep falling behind. They'll probably just become more and more symbolic in their actions, more noise to cover up for fewer results. Look at Little Mountain... still vacant, there are no excuses except incompetence in collaboration/managing/numeracy. That's reflected in the turnover of city staff, where the Grandview-Woodlands plan blew up, screwed up, and another chief planner had to be hired. They live in a vague big picture world where actions don't matter. They've had a decade and a mandate to try anything, but they still have no numbers to show they found any solutions... They have no plan, they just want you to feel good that they feel good.

The purpose of hoarding vacant lots is two-fold:
- ask for money from other levels of government
- as the largest owner of idle unused land in Vancouver, create the pretext to give away buildable land below market price to select developers in an opaque and corrupt process that is run by people who have a phobia of all numbers.

Council chooses to blindly believe whatever they want; they care about pet projects like the York Theatre or $50,000 vacations to Socchi, and that's why they prefer CD1 instead of broad based rezoning.

(There's now $715 million per year spent on housing for the needy in Vancouver you can't have a high market price/buildable s.f. and keep up with spending on subsidies or welfare. Broad-based rezoning would lower the cost per buildable s.f., and Robertson's VV has always opposed that as with how they chose to take over the Olympic Village's financing to prevent a fire-sale upon completion)

It might not matter much now because the private sector finally got up to speed and is finishing new housing units at a record pace after accessing enough developable properties, only a decade into the biggest RE boom ever. -- I don't fault VV for the flows of money beyond their control, I blame them from profiting personally by delaying a response to market prices. --

Vision Vancouver does more harm than good, the city gave them free reign to be bold and try new things but it gets worse everywhere they do take action. Allowing them to spend $100 to return $10 to the public takes away from initiatives that get actual results. When the time after the bubble comes, there will be nothing left and it won't be the folks who walked away with the $90 who will end up paying.


Politics out here lurches around, and Vision Vancouver has put image above results its entire tenure. The reaction will be tough love and hard numbers. Hopefully the next crew is more of a working-together themed council, but voters will accept a burn-it-to-the-ground approach just as well.


edit:
this is a transit discussion, and I was being glib that there's resources available. If they're smart and have the leadership to collaborate, they could use these 6 year old mega-budget items like Affordable Housing 2012 and actually make a difference. Better connections to the North Shore isn't exclusively about housing, but it's an improvement worth more than the city would spend on it. We need to find gains, it doesn't matter how much or how little we spend if we're not putting wood behind the right arrows.

Transit and transportation infrastructure are difficult because they are big items, but they're one of the few everyone appreciates and recognizes as a gain. Even the Port Mann bridge isn't hated despite there being both a toll, and a huge operating subsidy thanks to the BC Liberal P3 project organization.(CACs are the local form of P3s, and when a council has reached its spending limit so the CAC grants skyrocket look out for corruption and boondoggles)

Last edited by Genauso; Mar 1, 2017 at 8:27 PM.
     
     
  #16443  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2017, 7:52 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by Genauso View Post
No, they are vacant lots that will continue to be vacant lots because Vision Vancouver can't build units affordably.

Their purpose is two-fold:
- ask for money from other levels of government
- as the largest owner of idle unused land in Vancouver, create the pre-text to give away buildable land below market price to select developers in an opaque and corrupt process that is run by people who have a phobia of all numbers.

Council chooses to blindly believe whatever they want; they care about pet projects like the York Theatre or $50,000 vacations to Socchi, and that's why they prefer CD1 instead of broad based rezoning.

It might not matter much now because the private sector finally got up to speed and is finishing new housing units at a record pace after accessing enough developable properties, only a decade into the biggest RE boom ever.

Vision Vancouver does more harm than good, the city gave them free reign to be bold and try new things but it gets worse everywhere they do take action. Allowing them to spend $100 to return $10 to the public takes away from initiatives that get actual results. When the time after the bubble comes, there will be nothing left and it won't be the folks who walked away with the $90 who will end up paying.


Politics out here lurches around, and Vision Vancouver has put image above results its entire tenure. The reaction will be tough love and hard numbers.
Wait, what? Sorry to change the topic for a second. The government is mandated to build HOUSING units?!! How is that effective? Here in Montreal all construction must have at least 15% of community housing. The governement doesn't build housing, it's not its job!
     
     
  #16444  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2017, 8:33 PM
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Ironworkers bridge is already at capacity, and nowhere near Lonsdale.

edit: although I think most of us would gladly take that (in the northbound lane) if it is the only realistic option. Direct access to downtown would be far more popular though.
Who said anything about the Ironworkers' Memorial? Build a span just east of it, snake it along Dollarton/Main and along to Lonsdale. Less hassle than a deep-water tunnel.
     
     
  #16445  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2017, 8:48 PM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
Wait, what? Sorry to change the topic for a second. The government is mandated to build HOUSING units?!! How is that effective? Here in Montreal all construction must have at least 15% of community housing. The governement doesn't build housing, it's not its job!
Everything is poorly organized and poorly defined. Avoiding responsibility while claiming credit depending on what the political opportunity appears to be. Our local and provincial governments are very much perception first, actions last.

There is something called the Vancouver Affordable Housing Agency. I don't know much about them, they fired the well paid CEO of it because they didn't do anything and the next time I heard about them was subcontracting a firm that builds modular/temporary housing for a pilot project.

We don't have the big public housing blocks that were built in Toronto.

The CMHC projects that survive out here are largely co-ops, nice 2-4 storey buildings sprinkled around the city, but those don't count as social housing sites nowadays.

Most of the social housing are operated by a panoply of non-profit agencies (Streettohome, Portland Hotel Society, Atira, 127 Society which runs the Jubilee House that council made a lot of news over, etc.)
VV council in its 2017 Oxycontin response plan are adding shooting galleries as common rooms in some of them, because VV wants to serve beggars and in truth is not interested decreasing dependency on VV. The same money would make a bigger difference if it could be spent outside Vancouver in a coherent manner (Coquitlam is calling for a former mental hospital called Riverview, Gregor wants those 'transitional beds' where they detox and get on prescriptions to be in Vancouver)

Most of the people on welfare probably live in what's called SRO (Single Room Occupancy hotels), where they have a private room and bed but probably share sinks, bathrooms, showers. These tend to be maintained in very poor conditions because the landlords take the BC government cheque -- a meager $375/mth, pitiful even when not in a RE boom -- and spend as little as possible. The City of Vancouver is supposed to shutdown condemned buildings, but they take no action against some very wealthy slumlords. One of them was in the Panama Papers release. As the neighbourhood gets run down, they buy up neighbouring lots to hold for RE appreciation and to encourage more selling which will lower the assessed value for taxes. Hastings and Granville St downtown feature these ones.


Two last ones, term secured privately owned and operated rentals. This is the Rental 100 program. Redevelopment applications under CD1 it's carte blanche and depending on the private pre-proposal negotiation with the chief planner/Vision Vancouver the city will grant buildable land rights. They tend to grant enough that's it pays for itself, but is still privately owned, rented out at the owner's discretion, and could still be sold later in a couple (a future council releases the obligation, or NYC style rent control busting tactics). The city is now asking that rentals include more units with enough bedrooms for families, but who knows if they ever make an impact because they are constantly trying to micromanage and control what's built as with the outlawing of natural gas heating or stoves.
Similar but not the same are rentals built under Short Term Incentives for Rental Housing (STIR)


Basically, Vision Vancouver wants to suppress -- or drag out is more accurate -- redevelopment across the city as a starting point. So it becomes a high cost of land per sq. ft. of what you can build.
Then having created a massive problem that is spiraling out of control and exponentially increasing the demand on existing subsidies or the rental stock, solve the problem by gifting their buddies building rights, in exchange for a kickback of barely affordable rental apartments to people who are supposed to show VV gratitude and submission. Like with the arts community too, millions of bylaws will stop you from doing art but if you say you need VV, they'll fund you with grants.

If everything didn't have to go through Vision Vancouver, housing could be affordable. But they like being needed, the dependent relationship is their power with developers as well as voters.

Last edited by Genauso; Mar 1, 2017 at 9:14 PM.
     
     
  #16446  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2017, 10:04 PM
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Reecemartin Reecemartin is offline
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Originally Posted by bardak View Post
lets see what routes that coaches are used on
  • 555 - Still at only every 30 minutes outside of peak. Lets spend more money on running more service not on bigger buses
  • 351 - frequent and heavily used. Would probably benefit from double deckers but currently can't use them because of the tunnel.
  • 601 - only every 30 minutes off peak (though oddly better on weekends at every 20 minutes). Would benefit more from increasing frequency and wouldn't be able to use them until the tunnel is done anyway.
  • 301 - low frequency and ridership. would benefit from more bus service.


There will hopefully be a time for double deckers but probably not until the next order of highway coaches after the tunnel is replaced. By then with any luck most of the routes will be part of the FTN and the Tunnel will be replaced. Then double deckers could help reduce excess spending on these routes.
I was going to mention the future tunnel conversion but then I remembered!!

GO's new SuperLo buses are quite short for use inside of GO bus terminals. Turns out George Massey height restriction is 4.15m and these buses sit at 3.9

http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/aboutus/GOBuses_Jul12_EN.pdf

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/File:GO_Transit_8300-b.jpg
     
     
  #16447  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2017, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinion View Post
CNV Mayor is officially asking Translink for a skytrain to Lonsdale (10+ years from now):



There's a good video at this link too: http://globalnews.ca/news/3280023/north-...tunnel-linking-north-shore-to-vancouver/

They say the inlet depth is not a problem.
Possible pie in the sky idea - what about a Hastings Skytrain line that then follows W Georgia, through Stanley Park, along the Lions Gate bridge and ends at Park Royal. I'm figuring the Vancouver section would have to be underground (how deep where it crosses the Expo and Canada lines?) but it could be either a bridge or tunnel crossing the water. Is it completely crazy?
     
     
  #16448  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 12:26 AM
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Possible pie in the sky idea - what about a Hastings Skytrain line that then follows W Georgia, through Stanley Park, along the Lions Gate bridge and ends at Park Royal. I'm figuring the Vancouver section would have to be underground (how deep where it crosses the Expo and Canada lines?) but it could be either a bridge or tunnel crossing the water. Is it completely crazy?
Not crazy at all - just very long-term.

Mine's worse; I'm thinking Park Royal -> Stanley Park -> Robson -> Cambie -> Hastings ->Willingdon -> Patterson -> River District.
     
     
  #16449  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Not crazy at all - just very long-term.

Mine's worse; I'm thinking Park Royal -> Stanley Park -> Robson -> Cambie -> Hastings ->Willingdon -> Patterson -> River District.
Oh I know - anything beyond the Millennium and Expo extensions is pretty long-term...

I drew it out on google maps and mine would probably go Park Royal, across Stanley Park to W Georgia, Pender, and then Hastings to Kootenay Loop, diagonally to Brentwood, down to Metrotown, Imperial, and then 49th over to Canada Line.
     
     
  #16450  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Possible pie in the sky idea - what about a Hastings Skytrain line that then follows W Georgia, through Stanley Park, along the Lions Gate bridge and ends at Park Royal. I'm figuring the Vancouver section would have to be underground (how deep where it crosses the Expo and Canada lines?) but it could be either a bridge or tunnel crossing the water. Is it completely crazy?
It is worth noting that there is a deal on the books to close the Lions Gate Bridge to private vehicles in 2030 (source: http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/04/lions...ehicle-traffic-2030-government-agreement). I think your idea might be the most feasible actually. The line could then follow Hastings, which would be another long term priority. You could either continue on to SFU or turn at Willingdon to connect Brentwood and Metrotown via that corridor. Or perhaps have the line split at Willingdon and terminate at both locations.
     
     
  #16451  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 1:58 AM
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You could either continue on to SFU or turn at Willingdon to connect Brentwood and Metrotown via that corridor. Or perhaps have the line split at Willingdon and terminate at both locations.
The problem with continuing on to SFU is that the Skytrain can't do the grade up Burnaby Mountain, so it would have to end before that and people would transfer to a bus. What else is there in Burnaby that would act as a terminus?
     
     
  #16452  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 2:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Possible pie in the sky idea - what about a Hastings Skytrain line that then follows W Georgia, through Stanley Park, along the Lions Gate bridge and ends at Park Royal. I'm figuring the Vancouver section would have to be underground (how deep where it crosses the Expo and Canada lines?) but it could be either a bridge or tunnel crossing the water. Is it completely crazy?
I think pointing towards West Van would be a waste. The people who would use it (Lonsdale and the emerging neighbourhoods on eastern Marine) would be too far away and West Vancouverites would hate having "the poors" in their hood. And of course they would still drive.

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Originally Posted by rickvug View Post
It is worth noting that there is a deal on the books to close the Lions Gate Bridge to private vehicles in 2030
This "agreement" that didn't include anyone on the north shore has been shot down by official sources and really needs to stop being brought up. It's not happening without a new car crossing, as your link states.

Quote:
However, there is one major caveat with the plan. For the shutdown to occur, the agreement stipulates that a new replacement crossing across Burrard Inlet from Vancouver to the North Shore would have to be constructed.
     
     
  #16453  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 2:56 AM
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It is worth noting that there is a deal on the books to close the Lions Gate Bridge to private vehicles in 2030 (source: http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/04/lions...ehicle-traffic-2030-government-agreement).
That agreement is irrelevant. First of all it only comes into effect if a replacement is built, in which case it's basically a moot point. And even if it were the case there is simply no way any one of the four signatories is going to risk the worse-than-Trumpian political backlash for being the guys who forced the bridge to close.
     
     
  #16454  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 3:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
It's pretty unlikely that this would go directly across the deepest part of the harbour.

Not many people know about it, but there is already a tunnel parallel to the Lions Gate Bridge carrying water from the Capilano Reservoir towards downtown. It's called the First Narrows Pressure Tunnel. That was built in 1930-1935. The alignment is from Capilano Rd. to Pipeline Rd. in Stanley Park.

Any tunnel would probably skirt the mid-harbour and follow one of the narrows.
Hence the name, "Pipeline Road" in the park. Interesting tidbit.
     
     
  #16455  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 4:26 AM
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I think pointing towards West Van would be a waste. The people who would use it (Lonsdale and the emerging neighbourhoods on eastern Marine) would be too far away and West Vancouverites would hate having "the poors" in their hood. And of course they would still drive.
The problem with a crossing at Lonsdale is that it's quite possibly the longest distance across and so would be stupidly expensive. The only sections that are narrow enough to make it plausible are where the bridges are - so the northern terminus would be at Park Royal or Phibbs Exchange.

.and if buses are so anti-West Van then why are there so many buses travelling from downtown Van to Park Royal and beyond?
     
     
  #16456  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 5:41 AM
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and if buses are so anti-West Van then why are there so many buses travelling from downtown Van to Park Royal and beyond?
"The help" still has to get to work :p
     
     
  #16457  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 8:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rickvug View Post
It is worth noting that there is a deal on the books to close the Lions Gate Bridge to private vehicles in 2030 (source: http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/04/lions...ehicle-traffic-2030-government-agreement). I think your idea might be the most feasible actually. The line could then follow Hastings, which would be another long term priority. You could either continue on to SFU or turn at Willingdon to connect Brentwood and Metrotown via that corridor. Or perhaps have the line split at Willingdon and terminate at both locations.
This is an interesting idea. Expo line continued down Hastings/Willingdon - Bentwood - Metrotown - (perhaps back west into Vancouver).
     
     
  #16458  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 9:21 AM
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This is an interesting idea. Expo line continued down Hastings/Willingdon - Bentwood - Metrotown - (perhaps back west into Vancouver).
Expo was (more or less) supposed to end at Waterfront; best to come up with a fourth SkyTrain line at this point.
     
     
  #16459  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 9:41 AM
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The Orion highway buses are NOT comfy. If you are over 6 feet, you are in PAIN for the whole trip. Seats, not long enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No place to stand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BUT air conditioning.
Umm ok. I'm 6 feet and I like those buses. Wish translink used them on more routes. You can fall asleep in them so easy because of the slight recline and the AC. The seats are no different than most airlines economy class seating. Plus you want more legroom, there's several seats in the front. Don't know what you're getting at that you can't stand on them. Of course you can, unless you're 7 feet and taller.
     
     
  #16460  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2017, 9:49 AM
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With the recent news of the CNV mayor wanting Skytrain to the North Shore. I thought I would go about and do some analysis of a few possible options:



Option 1: Burrard Station to Taylor Way @ Marine Dr
1.1km tunnel crossing
3.9km land (cut&cover,bore,elevated,ect.)
5.0km total
Because of the long approaches, and LIM tech, grade shouldn't be an issue.

Option 2a: Canada Line to Lonsdale
4.0km total
Grade Requirement = 3%
Deepest Depth = 30m

Option 2b: Expo Line to Lonsdale
4.6km total
Grade Requirement = 2.5%
Deepest Depth = 30m

Option 3a.1: Canada Line to Lonsdale via 750m Floating Tunnel
3.45km total
Grade Requirement = 3.3%
Floating Tunnel Depth = 35m

Option 3a.2: Expo Line to Lonsdale via 750m Floating Tunnel
4.1km total
Grade Requirement = 2.1%
Floating Tunnel Depth = 35m

Option 3b.1: Expo Line to Lonsdale via 1750m Floating Tunnel
3.25km total
Grade Requirement = 2.5%
Floating Tunnel Depth = 35m

Option 4: Everblue Line from Lonsdale to Commercial Broadway.
3.35km from Lonsdale to Commercial-Hastings Station
Long approaches and shallow consistent depth. No grade requirement
Deepest Depth 30m
     
     
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