PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[summersm343]

Viaduct Rail Park Project May Break Ground This Spring

We come bearing good news while crossing our fingers: If all goes according to plan, phase 1 of the Viaduct Rail Park project could begin as early as spring 2016, according to the Center City District (CCD), which is managing the project. Of course, that's assuming the CCD and Friends of the Rail Park can drum up enough funding for the phase, which will turn a quarter-mile stretch of the abandoned Reading Viaduct rail line into an elevated greenway. (The total park will be 3-miles long.) According to a column published in the Philadelphia Inquirer yesterday, the project has already raised $5.1 million of the $9.6 million needed to begin construction. The problem? The other $3.5 million they're waiting on is from the state's Redevelopment Assistance Capital Program, which is held up in the state budget.

http://philly.curbed.com/archives/2016/0...project-may-break-ground-this-spring.php

[br323206]

Originally Posted by McBane

The main issue with the Cnywyd line is that is has so few stops. It has nothing to do with the fact that City Ave is "car-centric." The Doylestown/Landsale line, which goes through arguably the most rural and most auto-oriented areas of any other line is second only to the Thorndale/Paoli line in terms of ridership. The difference between the Doylestown and the Cynwyd lines? The former has 27 stops while the latter has five. Further, the Cynwyd line does NOT stop at Temple or Market East.

Certainly the two can't be compared. I realize that the Cynwyd line is never going to compete with the Lansdale line. But my thinking is that the individual stations on the line should be seeing way more traffic. Most people are using regional rail to get into the city, not to go between two spots on the same line (Lansdale to Ft. Washington, for example--it just can't compete with driving). So why then does the Lansdale station see 2,700 combined weekday boardings and alightings, while the Cynwyd station sees only 300? It doesn't really matter that the Lansdale line has a ton of stops because the bulk of the ridership comes from just a few dense, pedestrian-oriented stations like Lansdale and Ambler. Compare Lansdale's 2,700 boardings and alightings to the 140 at Delaware Valley University station or the 120 at the Link Belt station.

So I guess my point is that Cynwyd and Bala should both be seeing ridership comparable to Lansdale station--if they were more dense and pedestrian friendly. Then the Cynwyd line would have a ridership of around 5,000 daily passengers instead of 700 and it would be more comparable in ridership to the Chestnut Hill lines.

[Insoluble]

Man, it looks like the state budget fiasco is holding up a lot of cool projects. I'm looking forward to the viaduct project getting started soon though. It will really do wonders for the loft district/Eraserhood. One thing I find incredibly frustrating though:

Originally Posted by summersm343

Viaduct Rail Park Project May Break Ground This Spring
...(The total park will be 3-miles long.)...

I really hate the way every article that mentions this talks about the project as though the stupid underground portion was a done deal. No. The park will not be 3 miles long.

[New2Fishtown]

Originally Posted by Insoluble

Man, it looks like the state budget fiasco is holding up a lot of cool projects. I'm looking forward to the viaduct project getting started soon though. It will really do wonders for the loft district/Eraserhood. One thing I find incredibly frustrating though:


I really hate the way every article that mentions this talks about the project as though the stupid underground portion was a done deal. No. The park will not be 3 miles long.

Similarly frustrating that people consider the remaining phases of the above-ground portion to be a done deal, seeing as we don't own them. Alan Greenberger had a series of meetings during the Nutter administration with the holding company that owns the non-SEPTA piece of the above-ground structure (the big, truly transformative part). Long story short is that they didn't budge. Moreover, the success of the High Line showed them what a gold mine they're sitting in (ironic given that years ago they would have gladly given it away, but the city balked at the suggestion, fearing becoming the owner of another blighted structure they couldn't manage). Point being, I'd love to think they'll part with it eventually for something around fair market value, but the longer we wait, the higher that value will be, which adds to the budget considerably. I'd be very surprised if the holding company decided to dispose of it for less than it's worth as some kind of civic gesture, but one can dream.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by br323206

Certainly the two can't be compared. I realize that the Cynwyd line is never going to compete with the Lansdale line. But my thinking is that the individual stations on the line should be seeing way more traffic. Most people are using regional rail to get into the city, not to go between two spots on the same line (Lansdale to Ft. Washington, for example--it just can't compete with driving). So why then does the Lansdale station see 2,700 combined weekday boardings and alightings, while the Cynwyd station sees only 300? It doesn't really matter that the Lansdale line has a ton of stops because the bulk of the ridership comes from just a few dense, pedestrian-oriented stations like Lansdale and Ambler. Compare Lansdale's 2,700 boardings and alightings to the 140 at Delaware Valley University station or the 120 at the Link Belt station.

So I guess my point is that Cynwyd and Bala should both be seeing ridership comparable to Lansdale station--if they were more dense and pedestrian friendly. Then the Cynwyd line would have a ridership of around 5,000 daily passengers instead of 700 and it would be more comparable in ridership to the Chestnut Hill lines.

Good point. The people I know who live in Bala and commute to Center City and the folks who live in CC and commute to Bala all take the 44 bus. Certainly for the people who are commuting to jobs along City Ave, the bus is far more useful, even though it's consistently (and notoriously) late. Also the 44 bus snakes through Lower Merion, making it walking distance to a wider net of commuters, whereas the Bala train station is not really walking distance to that many people.

[Knight Hospitaller]

New York owner buys 1700 Market:

http://mobile.philly.com/beta?wss=/philly/business&id=364508781

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by br323206

Most people are using regional rail to get into the city, not to go between two spots on the same line (Lansdale to Ft. Washington, for example--it just can't compete with driving).

This is an unfortunate consequence of that the fact that most of our existing transit infrastructure does not go where people go (other than Center City and the Mainline), or rather, that the major new commercial nodes outside of the City were stupidly developed far from regional transit (E.g., KOP, Plymouth Meeting, Cherry Hill).

If the network connected these nodes with Center City (as we see in DC and Boston), many people would prefer transit to driving, I think, especially as these nodes developed in density and amenities as we see in other cities were there has been a conscious effort to direct development to transit nodes.

I mean, the Cynwyd line almost literally goes nowhere. There is almost nothing to do at any of its stops except go to sleep in your house if you happen to live nearby. Why would more than a handful of people take it? It's illogical to imagine that they would. It's basically a vanity line for train lovers, but in reality the resources used to maintain and operate it would probably be better spent enhancing regional transit links with greater potential to drive future development and growth (like a KOP link).

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by New2Fishtown

Similarly frustrating that people consider the remaining phases of the above-ground portion to be a done deal, seeing as we don't own them. Alan Greenberger had a series of meetings during the Nutter administration with the holding company that owns the non-SEPTA piece of the above-ground structure (the big, truly transformative part). Long story short is that they didn't budge. Moreover, the success of the High Line showed them what a gold mine they're sitting in (ironic given that years ago they would have gladly given it away, but the city balked at the suggestion, fearing becoming the owner of another blighted structure they couldn't manage). Point being, I'd love to think they'll part with it eventually for something around fair market value, but the longer we wait, the higher that value will be, which adds to the budget considerably. I'd be very surprised if the holding company decided to dispose of it for less than it's worth as some kind of civic gesture, but one can dream.

This is to be a public park, right? Eminent domain. Fuck em. They city has and is using it for far less appropriate uses.

[slow-v6]

Not sure if it's been brought up or not but what is being built at the 2 sites on broad street, right next and across from the inquire building?

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by slow-v6

Not sure if it's been brought up or not but what is being built at the 2 sites on broad street, right next and across from the inquire building?

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/...-cre-north-broad-callowhill-constru.html

http://m.philly.curbed.com/archives/2015/12/18/hanover-north-broad-development-groundbreaking.php

[Human Scale]

Originally Posted by slow-v6

Not sure if it's been brought up or not but what is being built at the 2 sites on broad street, right next and across from the inquire building?

Lots of retail! I want an Earl of Sandwich.

[Outta here]

Happy New Year all .

Just wondering ..... Anyone have any idea how much longer 8th.& Market can remain the " black hole , cesspool " of
East Market ?? Seems to me , it has been a life time and in much need of a pleasant change . I don't dabble in politics
so I am not aware of any " back room " deals that may prevent progress at this location .

This spot cries for development and surely deserves something really significant . I fear it will wind up another Walmart or
Pep Boys , and I will drop dead from frustration long before this diamond in the rough developes anything bigger , nicer ,
taller , than a bread box .

PS : I don't personally have anything against Walmart or Pep Boys , I just hope for something impressive on the skyline .

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by Outta here

Happy New Year all .

Just wondering ..... Anyone have any idea how much longer 8th.& Market can remain the " black hole , cesspool " of
East Market ?? Seems to me , it has been a life time and in much need of a pleasant change . I don't dabble in politics
so I am not aware of any " back room " deals that may prevent progress at this location .

This spot cries for development and surely deserves something really significant . I fear it will wind up another Walmart or
Pep Boys , and I will drop dead from frustration long before this diamond in the rough developes anything bigger , nicer ,
taller , than a bread box .

PS : I don't personally have anything against Walmart or Pep Boys , I just hope for something impressive on the skyline .

I hear they want to put a Super Wendy's there.

[Outta here]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

I hear they want to put a Super Wendy's there.

NNNNNGGGGH . : babyeat: :
Well .... you get the idea .....

[Human Scale]

(Deleted)

[alasi]

[QUOTE=Outta here;7292838]Happy New Year all .

Just wondering ..... Anyone have any idea how much longer 8th.& Market can remain the " black hole , cesspool " of
East Market ?? Seems to me , it has been a life time and in much need of a pleasant change..."

I remember that corner fondly as a kid, especially around Christmas when Gimbels, Lits and Strawbridges used to have these great XMAS displays. It was a vibrant corner because it was Dept store central. I also hope they put something great in there that will bring life back to the corner.

[PhillyPhlyr]

Just wondering, is there some sort of law or gentlemen's agreement that doesn't allow skyscrapers to be built East of City Hall? Always wondered why everything is on the west side.

[Jawnadelphia]

Originally Posted by PhillyPhlyr

Just wondering, is there some sort of law or gentlemen's agreement that doesn't allow skyscrapers to be built East of City Hall? Always wondered why everything is on the west side.

No such law at all. Philadelphia grew as a city from the Delaware River to the west. West - Market Street become the focus of a modern City Center after the elimination of the giant railroad complex (the China Wall - designed by Frank Furness). Once it was destroyed, Ed Bacon drew up all his nice plans for a modern, downtown office area - which became the Penn Center buildings. And then of course, in the 1980s-early 90's, the big skyscrapers arrived etc etc.

There can and will be tall buildings on East Market -- only a matter of time.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by br323206

Certainly the two can't be compared. I realize that the Cynwyd line is never going to compete with the Lansdale line. But my thinking is that the individual stations on the line should be seeing way more traffic. Most people are using regional rail to get into the city, not to go between two spots on the same line (Lansdale to Ft. Washington, for example--it just can't compete with driving). So why then does the Lansdale station see 2,700 combined weekday boardings and alightings, while the Cynwyd station sees only 300? It doesn't really matter that the Lansdale line has a ton of stops because the bulk of the ridership comes from just a few dense, pedestrian-oriented stations like Lansdale and Ambler. Compare Lansdale's 2,700 boardings and alightings to the 140 at Delaware Valley University station or the 120 at the Link Belt station.

So I guess my point is that Cynwyd and Bala should both be seeing ridership comparable to Lansdale station--if they were more dense and pedestrian friendly. Then the Cynwyd line would have a ridership of around 5,000 daily passengers instead of 700 and it would be more comparable in ridership to the Chestnut Hill lines.

That's because Lansdale was at one point a regional hub for the old Reading Railroad. You also have the pharma companies in nearby North Wales and Ft Washington.

You would think that having a corporate center in Bala Cynwyd, there would be a lot of commuters coming from CC and back, but the Cynwyd line is basically just a casualty of SEPTA's idiocy and incompetence of running a transportation system (subway, bus, even trolleys).

If SEPTA had any, and I mean ANY use of their heads, it would be to return the old regional rail designations (R7 Trenton to Allentown and R6 Reading to Cynwyd).

The only reason the Cynwyd line is struggling is because it's a completely short line. The old R6 made a lot of sense because the short R6 line from Cynwyd became a longer line to Norristown. Now, that's not even the case. SEPTA's got a lot of crackheads and cokeheads in the management!!!

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

I mean, the Cynwyd line almost literally goes nowhere. There is almost nothing to do at any of its stops except go to sleep in your house if you happen to live nearby. Why would more than a handful of people take it? It's illogical to imagine that they would. It's basically a vanity line for train lovers, but in reality the resources used to maintain and operate it would probably be better spent enhancing regional transit links with greater potential to drive future development and growth (like a KOP link).

The Cynwyd line is a useful line, whether you have a few hundred, or a few thousand. It's the only train line in that area. If you're advocating that SEPTA close the entire rail line in favor for buses or some pork barrel "light rail/BRT" crap which only benefits the corrupt developers and not the commuters, then I think you're crazy.

Once again, SEPTA needs to concentrate it's energy on bringing back the R6 from Cynwyd to Norristown/Reading and at least have a better commuter rail system and get rid of the bean counters that's robbing the commuter of not only his hard earned cash, but robbing the entire region of having a world class transportation system capable of going from Phila to Allentown, Reading, and Lancaster. The current system we have now is one big inconsistent clusterfuck, IMHO!!!

[br323206]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

If SEPTA had any, and I mean ANY use of their heads, it would be to return the old regional rail designations (R7 Trenton to Allentown and R6 Reading to Cynwyd).

The only reason the Cynwyd line is struggling is because it's a completely short line. The old R6 made a lot of sense because the short R6 line from Cynwyd became a longer line to Norristown. Now, that's not even the case. SEPTA's got a lot of crackheads and cokeheads in the management!!!



The Cynwyd line is a useful line, whether you have a few hundred, or a few thousand. It's the only train line in that area. If you're advocating that SEPTA close the entire rail line in favor for buses or some pork barrel "light rail/BRT" crap which only benefits the corrupt developers and not the commuters, then I think you're crazy.

Once again, SEPTA needs to concentrate it's energy on bringing back the R6 from Cynwyd to Norristown/Reading and at least have a better commuter rail system and get rid of the bean counters that's robbing the commuter of not only his hard earned cash, but robbing the entire region of having a world class transportation system capable of going from Phila to Allentown, Reading, and Lancaster. The current system we have now is one big inconsistent clusterfuck, IMHO!!!

I'm not so sure that extending the line to back to Norristown and beyond would really help that much. There probably isn't a whole lot of demand for a train from Cynwyd to Norristown. That's an easy drive and everyone living in that area has a car--not to mention the fact that not many people in Bala Cynwyd work in Norristown or vice versa. Would it be nice to have that line back? Sure. But with limited resources it definitely shouldn't be at the top of SEPTA's list. It would be much more beneficial, from a ridership perspective, to work with Lower Merion on upzoning the area to allow for denser multi-family development that is pedestrian-oriented.

Also, I don't think anyone is advocating to replace the Cynwyd line with light rail or BRT. I also don't see how light rail or BRT benefits developers and not commuters? That's a weird assertion.

I think that SEPTA should focus on increasing headways and making service more efficient, rather than expanding to the Lehigh Valley or Lancaster. I would rather be able to get around the Phila region more easily and reliably than be able to get to Amish Country.

Finally, and this is just a pet peeve of mine, "IMHO" means "in my humble opinion." When you are calling out SEPTA employees as "crackheads and cokeheads" and calling those that disagree with you crazy there is actually nothing humble about the way in which you are sharing your opinion.