CHICAGO | General Discussions

[Mr Roboto]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

You are correct.

I have little interest in fixing poverty in Chicago.

I want Chicago to be where New York and other cities are now--gentrify the poverty out. I want it to be somebody else's problem.

That's just how I feel, and I know I'm not alone. Yes, I guess that may define me as a racist (among some) but I don't care.

Well, it comes out, which is exactly as I suspected and why I feel the need to call you out when you comment on these types of issues. You seem to have this type of fixation with clearly defining people by socioeconomic status, and then labeling them by whatever simple means you deem appropriate with total disregard for actually understanding the reasons behind it. I suppose you'd prefer permanent systems of keeping people in poverty - serfdom, or indentured servants and slavery.

And its not somebody elses problem, its yours, its mine, its all of our problem collectively. We all pay taxes, we all vote (from time to time), we all use city services, infrastructure etc, we also all pay for public schools, we all pay for jails to be built and to house inmates, therefore we all clearly have a vested interest.

As far as being a racist, who knows. We all have a little bit of it in us, I know I do. Maybe you just feel the need to embrace it and express it rather than challenge your already lazy assumptions and actually look into all the various aspects that caused the type of poverty and violence associated with many of the struggling black, and some hispanic, city neighborhoods. In my honest opinion I find that your type of negative, callous and un-productive mentality should have no business in city policies; this city, or really any kind of city.

Its indefensible, and I shudder to think that people on this board actually agree with you regarding this. Why? Besides the basic human aspects, see below, its purely economics, something you should actually appreciate. We should absolutely be looking to constantly improve not just this aspect of poverty and crime in our society, but really all of society as a whole.

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

^^^ I don't quite agree with TUP here. While I would also prefer that the poverty be pushed out of the urban core if we have to have poverty, I would much rather find a way to permanently address the problem than just push it off to the side. Will there always be poor people: yes. Do we have to have an ongoing system of institutionalized poverty: no.

The fact is institutionalized poverty is BAD for our economy. Why? Because huge quantities of naturally occurring human capital is being wasted running massive drug gangs instead of being educated properly and going on to found a new tech start up or something. Let's say one in ten people is naturally very smart and a natural leader, I would prefer that every single one of those people be put to productive use by society and THAT is my problem with poverty. It is a total waste to have natural intelligence squandered because of drugs, gangs, or inept parenting.

At least you get it. I completely agree. Any substantial group of otherwise healthy and young but essentially unproductive people is a huge drain on our society, and thats precisely why Im of the opinion that we should, as a community and city, and really as a nation, continually struggle to find ways to improve the conditions that made those people unproductive. It really doesnt need to have anything to do with race, racism, or any other ism. It can be a cold objective view that purely focuses on the economic benefits for ALL of us.

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

I'm getting pretty bored with this conversation

Agreed.

Ill just explain a little more where I am coming from with this. Basically - expectations are the essential driving force behind the effort you put in life.

You set goals, some level of expectation, whether consciously or subconsciously. For example, you expect to pass a test at school or you set a goal to pass that test, you therefore do what is required to pass that test, by studying and working your ass off, and then take the test, and again, expect to pass it when you get the results. Sure, expectations alone are little more than wishful thinking, but again, the initial expectation is the spark that creates the drive to succeed in the first place. If you have low expectations, that is exactly what you will achieve.

I believe many of those who are part of the cycle of poverty in this country actually have much lower expectations of themselves, as does society, which makes them all the less likely to succeed. If you dont have that initial standard set for yourself, where does the drive to succeed come from? If instead you expect to one day get shot, or one day be thrown in jail, to be harassed by police, to find no benefits to education and school, then you have much less chance for success. Tying it back to the Chicagoland show, you can clearly see a kid who has low to no expectations for himself that Dozier is trying to help, and he is useless.

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

As the moral crusader of this thread

Yeah well, apparently somebody should do it. I dont like to do it, but I find the blunt negative language regarding people who find themselves to be struggling through no complete fault of their own to be troubling, actually pretty inhumane. Some of us seem to live in a bubble and are rarely confronted about our generalizations and simplistic views.

Anyways...

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Mr Roboto

Well, it comes out, which is exactly as I suspected and why I feel the need to call you out when you comment on these types of issues. You seem to have this type of fixation with clearly defining people by socioeconomic status, and then labeling them by whatever simple means you deem appropriate with total disregard for actually understanding the reasons behind it. I suppose you'd prefer permanent systems of keeping people in poverty - serfdom, or indentured servants and slavery.

I don't have an interest in fixing poverty in America. That's true.

But more importantly to me, I don't understand why poverty needs to be Chicago's job to fix. Here we are praising places like New York or San Francisco but it's not like those places fixed poverty, they just pushed it out of the way; yet black hip hop artists are singing New York City's praises all the time.

The City of Chicago should be no more morally obligated to fix poverty than Denver, CO or Beverly Hills, CA or Sioux Falls, SD, or Columbia, MO etc etc. It is not a problem that a city can fix--it is a byproduct of Capitalism.

[LouisVanDerWright]

^^^ I don't think you can say the kind of institutionalized poverty that Chicago has is "a byproduct of capitalism" or the problem would be equaled in every other capitalist city. Chicago's problem is much more heavily tied to the racial history of the United States than it is to capitalism. You could say the poverty in the immigrant communities in Chicago is just capitalism, but the african american population has undoubtedly been marginalized and abused for a very long time simply because of race and the fact is that it is very very hard to break that ingrained problem.

I think that it does no one any good to allow the problem to fester when we can make simple changes that can gradually, over time, at least give these people an equal shot at success. I'm strictly against handouts, etc., but basic reforms like ending the war on drugs and doing our best to allow the brightest students to get out through things like magnet schools.