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  #7521  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 10:32 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by sportsdude View Post
Sorry I got S70 and SD200 mixed up and I have edited the previous posts to reflect the proper model. Does anyone know any details about the Stephen Ave Metro and why it was estimated to cost 800 million in RouteAhead? How many stations are planned and for approx 2 KM new tunnel meeting up with the existing tunnel under Olympic Plaza it seems overly expensive. Is this because there would be constant pumps to keep the water out or because of the unique soil of Calgary's downtown?
$800 million sounds like a good deal, Tbh. I think there are 3 or 4 stations, each of which will be rather costly, and you're tunnelling (cut and cover?) through the busiest area of the city including under two railways. The cost per km will be inflated too as it's such a short distance.

If it is bored, then you'll have to factor in buying two tbms, also not cheap, but probably the best way to do it if continuing up Centre Street underground. Hopefully the consensus of an underground NCLRT on this board will be matched by the powers that be when the time comes to build it.
     
     
  #7522  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 12:58 PM
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Although there's always talk about whether the SETWAY or NCLRT should be first, what transit route is 3rd in line? By transit route I mean LRT or BRT with enough dedicated lanes for it to be more than just a BRT-branded express route.
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  #7523  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 2:05 PM
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I'd also like to see CT focus more on the grid system once you hit the innercity.
What I mean is that outside of the innercity, the system is more of a commuter system: LRT, BRT, and various cross town regular bus routes, and I think that's ok as the only destination shared by a majority of users is probably downtown and back or other major areas of employment and back.

But once you get into the innercity, then I think there would be more demand to use transit to get from innercity destination to innercity destination, for example downtown, stephen ave, centre st, 1st st, 17th ave, kensington, bridgeland, marda loop, inglewood, etc. Here's where it seems to fall short in my opinion.

For example:

14th Street: Sait/North hill mall down 14th to 33rd ave/marda loop? Can't do it on CT, you have to take 2-3 buses and you never pass through 14th street near Kensington.

17th Ave: want to travel down 17th from Westbrook to stampede? Can't do it.

4th Street: You're at Eau Claire/Prince's Island by 4th Street and you want to hit a pub in Mission at the south end of 4th street? You have to walk 8 blocks to catch a bus.

It would just be nice if the advantages for transit of a grid road network was better utilized where it exists: in the innercity.

the #3, Centre/Elbow is one of the few where it works as you might expect (maybe one would expect it to use Macleod Tr south of downtown but Elbow isn't bad.)

Stephen Ave works ok due to the LRT.

Route 5 seems reasonable since both 10th St and Edmonton Trail basically dead end when they hit downtown.
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  #7524  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
Although there's always talk about whether the SETWAY or NCLRT should be first, what transit route is 3rd in line? By transit route I mean LRT or BRT with enough dedicated lanes for it to be more than just a BRT-branded express route.
17 Ave SE upgradable transitway may be the closest thing planned?
I'd like to see a full crosstown line linking 17 AV SE with 16 Av N, something like this, within stoney as initial build, and extend as warranted.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zMWwAkql7o8w.kHCUL0Ckb600

     
     
  #7525  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by technomad View Post
17 Ave SE upgradable transitway may be the closest thing planned?
I'd like to see a full crosstown line linking 17 AV SE with 16 Av N, something like this, within stoney as initial build, and extend as warranted.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zMWwAkql7o8w.kHCUL0Ckb600




http://imgur.com/QJTlea3
I think a 16th Ave N BRT will link with other major centres in the NE, rather than a 17th Ave SE line. Places like Peter Lougheed hospital, Saddletown, etc.

Not sure if the 16th ave brt will go before 17th ave, but i think it requires far less capital investment than 17th.
     
     
  #7526  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:44 PM
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Partial LRT Ring

Beyond a crosstown line, with talk of a TBM being bought for a flood relief tunnel, making a dual purpose one underneath heritage could be used as part of a LRT ring line.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zMWwAkql7o8w.kO4vepuSBlb0



This would link NW, W, S, SE Lines, and add Market Mall, Signal Hill, Grey Eagle, MRU, Rocky View, Heritage Park, Deerfoot Meadows, Quarry West activity nodes to the network.
     
     
  #7527  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelS View Post
I think a 16th Ave N BRT will link with other major centres in the NE, rather than a 17th Ave SE line. Places like Peter Lougheed hospital, Saddletown, etc.

Not sure if the 16th ave brt will go before 17th ave, but i think it requires far less capital investment than 17th.
Actually I was thinking rail for the above, not sure f it's the best alignment by current travel patterns, but after the NC/SE line, I think some non-core LRT lines should be done, these may even help take some load of the centre of the system.

Success of BRT routes would of course be a great indicator of what these could best look like.
     
     
  #7528  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:57 PM
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The line would be way more than that. Plus awful path dependency issues. Route Ahead has not made any technology choices for connecting the North Central and North East LRTs along 96th Ave. Could be anything from a spur of either line to a gondola.
Could the tunnel theoretically be used for HSR?

I think the airport would be best served by an express train of some sort direct to downtown. Could run fairly frequently in between full HSR trains.

Here, HSR would come in from the east an use airport trail and tunnel to get to a stop near YYC terminal, then cut down to nose creek and follow CP ROW into downtown.

     
     
  #7529  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
Although there's always talk about whether the SETWAY or NCLRT should be first, what transit route is 3rd in line? By transit route I mean LRT or BRT with enough dedicated lanes for it to be more than just a BRT-branded express route.
I see three real contenders for true lines as opposed to incremental improvements in BRT routes:

An International Ave line of some form would probably make the most sense from a cost benefit perspective. It is the only logical place for a seventh radial line and the street's ROW is wide enough to easily allow for either dedicated lanes or an elevated structure that won't blanket the entire area with shadow. I'd imagine that ridership and cost would be comparable to the W LRT, if not better, if it were done as a, similarly mostly grade separated, LRT.

Some kind of western semi-circle line hitting major activity centres would probably generate the most riders but finding a cost effective ROW would be a real challenge. Connecting the S, W and NW LRTs with stations at Chinook, Rockyview Hospital, MRU, Westbrook, Foothills Hospital, West Campus/Alberta Children's Hospital, the U of C, and Brentwood, would result in a line with the kind of "employment" (counting students) numbers to rival downtown. The big negative is the lack of a decent and cheap ROW but another issue would be that none of the commutes served really have rush hour peaks so it isn't really providing an alternative to congestion.

An Airport line is probably the most likely. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to build but a lot of people like airport connections which leads to a lot of cities building them. It would likely be the cheapest option, so there is that.
     
     
  #7530  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by technomad View Post
Could the tunnel theoretically be used for HSR?

I think the airport would be best served by an express train of some sort direct to downtown. Could run fairly frequently in between full HSR trains.

Here, HSR would come in from the east an use airport trail and tunnel to get to a stop near YYC terminal, then cut down to nose creek and follow CP ROW into downtown.

While technically possible, curve requirements for HSR even not at speed I believe would be too great to get into and out of the terminal area, at least without causing a big delay, which would mean you still have a forced transfer to a people mover. You may as well keep the alignment by Nose Creek then instead of placing a loud train near communities that haven't even had a bit of a hint HSR might be near them.
     
     
  #7531  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 9:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
While technically possible, curve requirements for HSR even not at speed I believe would be too great to get into and out of the terminal area, at least without causing a big delay, which would mean you still have a forced transfer to a people mover. You may as well keep the alignment by Nose Creek then instead of placing a loud train near communities that haven't even had a bit of a hint HSR might be near them.
Well, something like the following would work with the Shinkasen low speed radius, and allow for an elevated station capable of accommodating a full 400m trainset.

Source, CA HSR: http://sonic.net/~mly/2000-10-CHSRA-minimal-radii-memo.pdf



As for NIMBY/noise probs, these neighborhoods are already backing onto a freeway, is HSR really going to be any worse than 6 lanes of vehicle traffic, or an LRT train for that matter?

IMO connecting the airports directly to HSR is worth the political and engineering challenges.
     
     
  #7532  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 10:12 PM
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One other consideration is the impact the SELRT would have on the current South line. (201) If the LRT goes to Quarry Park or Douglas Glen; now you have many people who would have taken the 201 taking the SELRT instead. Not only from places south and/or east of Douglas Glen, but possibly even Deer Run, Bonavista or Acadia. Especially if there is better parking and/or better capacity options on the train.
     
     
  #7533  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 10:16 PM
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I don't know why HSR would come into the city there, it will roughly follow the CP Rail line.
     
     
  #7534  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 10:16 PM
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^ The document doesn't have at what speeds the curves can be navigated. Plus there is the operational end switch. Time for longer trips is what is making money.

I would bet it would be cheaper for a dedicated airport link spur for airport downtown one seat travel from the nose creek corridor and a people mover from a nose creek station of some sort.

I wouldn't be surprised if building a one seat from downtown service was cheaper than an airport LRT spur (and would likely provide service at 2/3rds to one half journey time).
     
     
  #7535  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
While technically possible, curve requirements for HSR even not at speed I believe would be too great to get into and out of the terminal area, at least without causing a big delay, which would mean you still have a forced transfer to a people mover. You may as well keep the alignment by Nose Creek then instead of placing a loud train near communities that haven't even had a bit of a hint HSR might be near them.
Just have it on a spur, any HSR would be hopelessly under utilized so there would be plenty of spare paths for a separate airport rail, and you would keep the mainline from stopping. It would then only need a handful of cheap EMUs to shuttle back and forth.
     
     
  #7536  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ken0042 View Post
One other consideration is the impact the SELRT would have on the current South line. (201) If the LRT goes to Quarry Park or Douglas Glen; now you have many people who would have taken the 201 taking the SELRT instead. Not only from places south and/or east of Douglas Glen, but possibly even Deer Run, Bonavista or Acadia. Especially if there is better parking and/or better capacity options on the train.
I agree - there could be a considerable impact on the SWLRT when the SELRT opens. It could also push some of the Okotoks commuters away from the 201. We'll see if four cars trains will alleviate the current crowded trains during peak times, but factoring in for growth it might be another reason to push the SELRT. I personally started driving downtown because of how crowded they have been recently, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

I couldn't see anyone from Bonavista or Acadia heading to the SELRT, it's a fair bit out of the way for these communities through heavy traffic in rush hour.

I'm in Deer Run right now and I think Anderson is still the go-to station for Park-n-ride commuters for the time being as the other stations nearby usually fill up by 6:30 for non-reserved parking spots. Before Canyon Meadows opened, heading downtown on Transit from Deer Run was actually significantly better... but they removed the express bus when that happened.
     
     
  #7537  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 11:21 PM
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I don't know why HSR would come into the city there, it will roughly follow the CP Rail line.
Specific purpose of this route would be to offer a more streamlined connection to YYC. Full spitball map for S&Gs:

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zMWwAkql7o8w.kfpNf5ENg0GY

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
^ The document doesn't have at what speeds the curves can be navigated. Plus there is the operational end switch. Time for longer trips is what is making money.

I would bet it would be cheaper for a dedicated airport link spur for airport downtown one seat travel from the nose creek corridor and a people mover from a nose creek station of some sort.

I wouldn't be surprised if building a one seat from downtown service was cheaper than an airport LRT spur (and would likely provide service at 2/3rds to one half journey time).
Yeah, haven't found all the specs quickly, but unless we've developed some rad new 'tuck and roll' boarding system, the train would already be operating very slow for the stop. Fair call in the switch, but I think there's still room for it.

If a dedicated run between the terminal and DT is cheaper than an HSR diversion and some extra airport express trains, I have no problems with that. I just think that LRT is poor connector for the airport, we should be following Toronto's lead on this, not Vancouver.
     
     
  #7538  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 11:23 PM
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How many people are going to fly into Calgary and take high speed rail to Edmonton? Or fly to Edmonton and take it to Calgary? Why wouldn't they fly to the city they are going to? Even Rad Dear has flight connections. Seams like it would be redundant. I'd think it would be better to run LRT to airport, and leave the high speed rail with fewer stops.
     
     
  #7539  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Just have it on a spur, any HSR would be hopelessly under utilized so there would be plenty of spare paths for a separate airport rail, and you would keep the mainline from stopping. It would then only need a handful of cheap EMUs to shuttle back and forth.
An HSR/DT link would definitely need to have more frequent runs beyond the trains to Edmonton, but I really don't like the idea of an extra transfer from terminal to 96 av CP ROW station.

Making terminal/DT direct will work for a good portion of the users, and is equally fair to any others that may need LRT to complete their trip.
     
     
  #7540  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 11:36 PM
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Sorry I got S70 and SD200 mixed up and I have edited the previous posts to reflect the proper model. Does anyone know any details about the Stephen Ave Metro and why it was estimated to cost 800 million in RouteAhead? How many stations are planned and for approx 2 KM new tunnel meeting up with the existing tunnel under Olympic Plaza it seems overly expensive. Is this because there would be constant pumps to keep the water out or because of the unique soil of Calgary's downtown?
From what has been posted here there are a number of delicate utilities that run down and across Stephen ave that add challenges to the subway. In addition as has been mentioned building a subway in the center of a busy city poses other challenges with keeping foot traffic moving along the avenue, facilitating emergency access to the avenue and cross traffic. Not to mention digging directly beside existing structures (some 100+ years old) poses further challenges. Add in geological conditions (high water table, etc.) and you have a highly challenging project with a high number of critical risks.
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