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  #1  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2013, 1:18 AM
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Dr Awesomesauce Dr Awesomesauce is offline
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When people speak of innovation as it pertains to oil, my eyes roll back in my head. I don't know what it means, but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with a wish and a prayer. Or perhaps something borne out of a Hollywood film script. A lot of people think that when oil becomes really scarce, we'll just input 'technology.' I don't know what that means either. Nobody knows what that means. This isn't Star Trek after all: Klingons, warp speed and photon torpedoes aren't real (though I wish they were).

People need to think long and hard about the future of oil. Forget twenty years because we're in big trouble already. I mean, look at what we're doing in Alberta - that's desperation. It's low grade oil that requires massive amounts of processing (and money of course), resulting in an ongoing, slow-motion environmental disaster. We're doing that because most of the world's big oil exporters are both producing less and using more at home.

Again, this is an situation nobody in the general public, the media or politics wants to discuss (or understands for that matter). But put your ear to the ground and listen to what geologists have to say - it's not good. You have to ignore the Forbes Magazines of this world because they're horribly biased on the issue. In fairness to them, though, they have to paint as rosy a picture as possible or what's left of the economy will go south in a big hurry - I get that. But it's geologists for BP, Shell and so on that we must listen to. They're the ones whose job it is to know how much oil there is and whether or not we can get our hands on it - they're worried.

And by the way, those predictions are not mine; they're the predictions of experts in this field. Yes, oil prices may go down (as the economy fluctuates wildly) but invariably they will rise.

The OECD, whose modus operandi it is to promote economic development around the world, predicts oil at $270/ barrel by 2020. Whether it's $270 or $150/ barrel doesn't really matter - we'll be in trouble either way.

Biofuels are a non-starter because there isn't enough corn and algae on the planet to fuel our insatiable appetites. And why wouldn't we just eat the corn? Isn't that more important than pumping it into our SUVs? The resultant deforestation involved with increasing our food to fuel program would far outweigh any net benefit anyway.

In the end, we'll destroy this planet in a vain effort to keep our cars on the road. What's the point in having a car if you've got no job to go to? These warehousing jobs won't be viable if oil prices rise as predicted. And as pointed out, cheap oil will only be an indication of a failed economy, so that's moot. After all, there are no new - massive - oil fields coming on line. That's been done unfortunately. All we're left with is the dregs.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2013, 12:37 PM
HillStreetBlues HillStreetBlues is offline
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Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce View Post
When people speak of innovation as it pertains to oil, my eyes roll back in my head.
You mention a lot here. I don't want to hijack a thread about this development with a long conversation about energy, but you're not wrong that it is a conversation worth having. As far as technology goes, no one knows for sure what technology and technologies will be implemented in the future to mitigate our challenges, but there's no reason to say there won't be any. In Europe following the Middle Ages, charcoal was a massive source of energy. Deforestation became a very real problem, so much so that England had a serious lack of wood for constructing ships and buildings. This problem was not put to rest until new technologies for extraction of coal were developed. Coal itself had been "exhausted" centuries earlier. We were utterly convinced that it would be, because the very accessible coal was increasingly hard to find. So this is what people mean when they say "technology." It's nothing to do with Klingons or warp speed: it is a grindingly slow process of innovation, and it requires a lot of patience. A lot of it is invisible, which is why it can be easy to overlook.

What we're doing in Alberta is an example- these techniques didn't exist decades ago, and even where they did would not have been economical because of the price of oil. With oil prices where they are, we are enabled to use more expensive technologies to extract it. It's a choice to view that as desperation. Fracking is another example of a new and expensive technique that only makes economical sense above a certain price for oil. It is incorrect to say that the big oil consumers are producing less- this year, the U.S. will be a net exporter of oil.

I shouldn't have implied that it is a big deal that oil prices will increase- since its discovery, it has increased in price since the most accessible oil is consumed first. This is only logical. The ways in which we use oil have become more efficient- I'm no great fan of the personal automobile, either, and think that our dependence on it has more negative impacts than just environmental, but a car being sold today is more efficient (while still being safer and better-performing) than a car 20, ten, or even just five years ago. Likewise for industrial uses of oil.

In my opinion, corn ethanol is a senseless government scheme that amounts mostly to hidden subsidies to farmers. But that doesn't mean that the technologies being developed to create biofuels are non-starters: we may one day produce ethanol from waste wood and other types of vegetation. Enough solar energy hits the Earth each day to power everything we've ever built many times over. Here in Ontario we have a very healthy electricity mix that relies on nuclear and hydro-electric energy. Our electricity consumption is currently so uneven that we sometimes pay other jurisdictions to accept our surplus hydro overnight- we could power many electric cars in this province without adding a single kilowatt of capacity.

I don't think this development is a good idea, but it's not because I think we're headed for peak energy and economic collapse because there are simply no more "easily" (this is subjective) accessible energy sources. There's too many reasons to be positive about things generally, so my reasoning is that we shouldn't put scarce local resources into more-of-the-same development when there are other types of developments that would add a lot more value to our economy and community.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2013, 3:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce View Post
When people speak of innovation as it pertains to oil, my eyes roll back in my head. I don't know what it means, but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with a wish and a prayer. Or perhaps something borne out of a Hollywood film script. A lot of people think that when oil becomes really scarce, we'll just input 'technology.' I don't know what that means either. Nobody knows what that means. This isn't Star Trek after all: Klingons, warp speed and photon torpedoes aren't real (though I wish they were).

People need to think long and hard about the future of oil. Forget twenty years because we're in big trouble already. I mean, look at what we're doing in Alberta - that's desperation. It's low grade oil that requires massive amounts of processing (and money of course), resulting in an ongoing, slow-motion environmental disaster. We're doing that because most of the world's big oil exporters are both producing less and using more at home.

Again, this is an situation nobody in the general public, the media or politics wants to discuss (or understands for that matter). But put your ear to the ground and listen to what geologists have to say - it's not good. You have to ignore the Forbes Magazines of this world because they're horribly biased on the issue. In fairness to them, though, they have to paint as rosy a picture as possible or what's left of the economy will go south in a big hurry - I get that. But it's geologists for BP, Shell and so on that we must listen to. They're the ones whose job it is to know how much oil there is and whether or not we can get our hands on it - they're worried.

And by the way, those predictions are not mine; they're the predictions of experts in this field. Yes, oil prices may go down (as the economy fluctuates wildly) but invariably they will rise.

The OECD, whose modus operandi it is to promote economic development around the world, predicts oil at $270/ barrel by 2020. Whether it's $270 or $150/ barrel doesn't really matter - we'll be in trouble either way.

Biofuels are a non-starter because there isn't enough corn and algae on the planet to fuel our insatiable appetites. And why wouldn't we just eat the corn? Isn't that more important than pumping it into our SUVs? The resultant deforestation involved with increasing our food to fuel program would far outweigh any net benefit anyway.

In the end, we'll destroy this planet in a vain effort to keep our cars on the road. What's the point in having a car if you've got no job to go to? These warehousing jobs won't be viable if oil prices rise as predicted. And as pointed out, cheap oil will only be an indication of a failed economy, so that's moot. After all, there are no new - massive - oil fields coming on line. That's been done unfortunately. All we're left with is the dregs.
I think we need to look at the future more in terms of energy and less in terms of oil. That's why I said "demand for energy".

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say here about the world's oil production. There are supposedly lots of reserves left - but some of that tally is educated guesswork, a good portion is not conventional crude, they are increasingly costly to access and process, there are large environmental costs associated with doing so, and growing demand means that their rate of depletion keeps rising. The likelihood of finding new deposits gets smaller over time.

We do have an economy in which oil is a vital input. It serves, in part, a massive demand for transportation, and we've grown quite dependent on it for that since WWII (really not very long ago in the timeline of human history). Some people believe that with "peak oil" there will be a catastrophic collapse in the oil sector and this will lead to the downfall of modes of transportation that depend more on oil, which means society may go through a major and lasting shock that will be very painful.

I have a hard time believing that because, like HillStreetBlues notes, we've adapted before. I also tend not to believe in extremes when it comes to predictions. There may be short term impacts, but bigger changes evolve more slowly over the course of time.

Our transportation demand is not going to go away. Our economies are built largely on trade (they have always been, just not to the current scale), both international and domestic. Transportation is also important for services, and it's key in our personal lives for our jobs and family needs.

So the impetus to find new ways to fuel that transportation is big, and people have been looking at that, not just recently either. Whether biofuels go anywhere or not we'll see (I agree that using food crops is not a solution), but there are other technologies in use and being developed that can improve fuel efficiency or supplement oil fuels in the short term, reduce our dependency on them in the medium term, and potentially replace them altogether in the future. That's not science fiction - it's what society has always done.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2013, 12:33 AM
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Sorry for being so abrasive in my previous post - I'd had a bad day. And besides, the Internet isn't the best venue for these sorts of discussions anyway. I'd rather just talk about whether or not Starbucks is opening up downtown.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2013, 3:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce View Post
Sorry for being so abrasive in my previous post - I'd had a bad day. And besides, the Internet isn't the best venue for these sorts of discussions anyway. I'd rather just talk about whether or not Starbucks is opening up downtown.
That was abrasive?

Nah, it didn't come across that way. A little sarcastic up front, but that's something I appreciate.

I read it as one point of view that has some very valid considerations - while I tend to take a different perspective, at this point there are so many unknowns where energy production and technology are concerned. So who knows how it will all unfold.

It's important to make sure our investments in cities reflect good planning and economics. I just think it's also important to plan to provide options, especially in a competitive environment for attracting business.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2013, 12:16 PM
HillStreetBlues HillStreetBlues is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce View Post
Sorry for being so abrasive in my previous post - I'd had a bad day. And besides, the Internet isn't the best venue for these sorts of discussions anyway. I'd rather just talk about whether or not Starbucks is opening up downtown.

I didn't feel any abrasion, so no need for apology. I agree with you that this is probably not the best forum for that topic, but it does have some relation. It wasn't inappropriate at all for you to originally bring up our energy challenges in a conversation about an ill-advised development on the edge of the city that will consume agricultural land and serve to foster yet more suburban sprawl.
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