Retail News

[omro]

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

That's what amazes me, how many high rise apartments there are downtown and yet retail is so weak. There must be tens of thousands of residents in walking distance of James South, King East and Gore Park. There are things I simply don't buy because they aren't sold downtown and I can't waste my time going up the mountain for it.

It depends if these residents have money or not. There are areas of East London chocablock with high rises, but since they are all council tenants on lower incomes, the areas reflect it.

Retail is all about foot traffic at the end of the day and downtown Hamilton is divided by unpedestrian friendly roads that don't encourage lingering, just walking rapidly from A-B to avoid the noise and fumes.

I didn't visit Locke Street during my visit, but I lead to believe it's quite popular in terms of shops and if Starbucks are there then they've obviously identified its potential. As I said, I don't know the road first hand, so I may be incorrect, but I wouldn't be too shocked if the road traffic was less, encouraging more foot traffic.

[FairHamilton]

It's the demographics. You can have all the people in the world, but if you don't have the right demographics you've got nothing.

[raisethehammer]

The demographics of Durand, Kirkendall and Corktown are excellent.
Just ask the London Tap House, Corktown Pub, Slainte and Honest Lawyer to name a few recent additions/expansions to the core which all cited the changing demographic in those areas.

[oldcoote]

Demographic's are important, but trust me, a whole whack of upper middle income earners shop at Costco and Walmart.

People just do not support the local retailer anymore simply because it's more expensive than the power centre alternative.

Sad but true.

I know people who drive from Westdale to Ancaster to buy a book at Chapters, despite having one of the best independent bookstores in the country, literally at their doorstep.

It all frustrates me to no end. Worst of all, they're usually the first to lament the demise of local retailers.

[flar]

The demographics are there, and retailers have recognized that. There is demand for retail here, which is why they are building all these new power centers. But the city keeps giving them the easy way out by letting them build the same suburban formula. Make no mistake, they want the Hamilton market. The city has a bad reputation for sure, and there is additional risk when retailers deviate from the tried and true formats, but they would take these risks and build in urban areas if we forced them. That is why so many of us on here get pissed off about the Centre Mall plans and turning employment lands into WalMart. We kill our chances of revitalizing the city by allowing these suburban power centres to satisfy all our retail demand.

[omro]

Originally Posted by oldcoote

Demographic's are important, but trust me, a whole whack of upper middle income earners shop at Costco and Walmart.

Yes, but Costco and Walmart are for cheap, bulk items. City centre shopping streets do exist despite out of town retail parks. To use the only Canadian example I know. Robson Street in Vancouver, when I was there, was downtown, vibrant and packed with shoppers and highend brand names. It didn't seem to have lost out to the fact that not far out of town was the enormous Metrotown shopping mall.

Originally Posted by oldcoote

I know people who drive from Westdale to Ancaster to buy a book at Chapters, despite having one of the best independent bookstores in the country, literally at their doorstep.

That sounds like a lack of information and marketing on the part of the local bookstore. Plus, having never been to this book store, I will say that most chain bookstores hold a much wider range of books and more mainstream titles than independents generally, so that will work against it. I personally only ever buy from bookshops, even the big chains, if I need a book immediately, I'd rather save money and use amazon or similar. However, I know you're just illustrating a point and I'm being a bit pedantic.

It is important to have a downtown shopping district in any town or city. The UK has realised this and begun to limit the building of out of town retail parks in favour of pedestrianising city centres and offering incentives for people to get there, park and ride, cheap transit, trams, etc. turning the town centres into open air malls of a sort, in essence what they once were. It was either that or see the core parts of town empty and left to decay. Here there is much less talk these days about the fears of high street retail being sidelined in favour of out of town retail parks, more fears of high street retail being sidelined in favour of internet retail.

As the fuel costs continue to go up, the people who would have driven to out of town retail parks just to get a few items will reconsider these "little and often" trips and need and want shops on their doorstep.

[FairHamilton]

By demographics I meant more than just income, because demographics are so much more than income/wealth. I was also talking about age, family size, amount of homeownership vs rental, etc.

The post which kicked off this part of the thread, focused only with density with no mention of other important items like demographics. Fact is, young urban individuals spend more in their area than middle-age, senior people.

That needs to be looked at when understanding market areas. Ignore it at your peril.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

we need the thousands of people in Durand and Corktown to get off their duffs and support these businesses.

the density in that area is astounding. People need to quit acting like Hamiltonians and spending all their time watching TV, and get out and enjoy the neighbourhood. geez.

You constantly call me a squelcher and yet your complaint about people is that they are "acting like Hamiltonians." How would you like to see them act?

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I actually mean corporate Canada. It's all US-owned these days.
I realize they can locate where they want, but you know they're staying away for various reasons when we don't see some of these stores downtown.
Look at how busy the Starbucks has been on locke since opening. they're making gobs of money. Another one, or second cup would do great at the Gore or International Village.
But none of them want to take the plunge.
That's another reason why Stinson's project is so important. He's going to bring in a few 'big' stores and it would draw others to locate here without feeling like they're taking the first step.
these corporations usually operate very, very safely. They want to see other businesses do well before moving in. It's kind of hard in our case when nobody is brave enough to open up a store and test the market. It's like a never-ending game of chicken.

I don't know that old Harry is going to do much of anything, much less be a saviour for the city of Hamilton.

As FairHamilton says, it is all about demographics.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by flar

The demographics are there, and retailers have recognized that.

Hamilton may well be able to support the suburban shops that you speak about, but the localized demographics are just not there in downtown Hamilton for shops like Starbucks, which may well have reached saturation with a single downtown shop. Contrast this situation with places that have young people with disposable income, such as Yonge and Eglinton in Toronto, where there are three such shops in a single square block of area.

Downtown Hamilton needs to find out how to start luring in business that will provide jobs.

[omro]

Originally Posted by BCTed

Downtown Hamilton needs to find out how to start luring in business that will provide jobs.

Who the heck are employed in the big office towers down town and where do they spend their money? I saw plenty of suited people walking around outside the downtown city centre shopping thingy, or was that a figment of my imagination? I didn't note if they were young with money types though. They could all be low paid admin types for all I knew.

It's a mystery to me, because there does look like there are a few office blocks in downtown Hamilton that must have some sort of work force, unless they are majorly under utilised buildings.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by omro

Who the heck are employed in the big office towers down town and where do they spend their money? I saw plenty of suited people walking around outside the downtown city centre shopping thingy, or was that a figment of my imagination? I didn't note if they were young with money types though. They could all be low paid admin types for all I knew.

It's a mystery to me, because there does look like there are a few office blocks in downtown Hamilton that must have some sort of work force, unless they are majorly under utilised buildings.

I'm sure there are pockets of people making a very good living downtown, but for the most part, there is really not much to speak of in terms of well-paying positions. HAMRetrofit once told me that he could name 100 (or was it more?) downtown Hamilton businesses that are potential employers of MBA graduates off the top off his head, and then he proceeded to name exactly none.

A lot of downtown Hamilton jobs are of the admin or call centre variety.

[flar]

Originally Posted by BCTed

Hamilton may well be able to support the suburban shops that you speak about, but the localized demographics are just not there in downtown Hamilton for shops like Starbucks, which may well have reached saturation with a single downtown shop. Contrast this situation with places that have young people with disposable income, such as Yonge and Eglinton in Toronto, where there are three such shops in a single square block of area.
.

Is the Centre Mall site suburban? Is the MIP site where SmartCentres wants to build suburban? Or the Mountain Plaza on Upper James? No, there is retail demand in central Hamilton that they're trying to meet by building near central Hamilton. The problem as I see it is that the city is allowing them to build suburban style big box stores instead of utilizing the existing retail space. The demographics are most certainly there, I've personally photographed hundreds of beautiful homes with nice cars in the driveway in central Hamilton. I even know some of these people. They drive to Burlington or Ancaster to shop all the time. The retailers want to get closer to them.

[IronWarrior]

Originally Posted by omro

Who the heck are employed in the big office towers down town and where do they spend their money? I saw plenty of suited people walking around outside the downtown city centre shopping thingy, or was that a figment of my imagination? I didn't note if they were young with money types though. They could all be low paid admin types for all I knew.

It's a mystery to me, because there does look like there are a few office blocks in downtown Hamilton that must have some sort of work force, unless they are majorly under utilised buildings.

Alot of those people drive home to Burlington and Ancaster at the end of the day, some are also low paid admin types like you said, those people probably live in and around Central Hamilton..But I would day 50% are from the suburbs, I just know this from the people I talk to downtown e.t.c..

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by omro

Who the heck are employed in the big office towers down town and where do they spend their money? I saw plenty of suited people walking around outside the downtown city centre shopping thingy, or was that a figment of my imagination? I didn't note if they were young with money types though. They could all be low paid admin types for all I knew.

It's a mystery to me, because there does look like there are a few office blocks in downtown Hamilton that must have some sort of work force, unless they are majorly under utilised buildings.

allow me to fill you in before our local troll gives you a wrong impression of downtown.
the highest income earners in Hamilton earn their income in DOWNTOWN Hamilton. Yes, in those office towers near the shopping thingy (good word for it these days. lol).
Also, the surrounding neighbourhoods are seeing a huge influx of young professionals, yuppies, boomers etc....all locating downtown again due to the quality of life, nightlife, dining, entertainment, arts, good neighbourhoods etc....
I believe the demographics are at the point where retailers could open up shop...the question is, who will be first to take the chance?

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

allow me to fill you in before our local troll gives you a wrong impression of downtown.
the highest income earners in Hamilton earn their income in DOWNTOWN Hamilton. Yes, in those office towers near the shopping thingy (good word for it these days. lol).
Also, the surrounding neighbourhoods are seeing a huge influx of young professionals, yuppies, boomers etc....all locating downtown again due to the quality of life, nightlife, dining, entertainment, arts, good neighbourhoods etc....
I believe the demographics are at the point where retailers could open up shop...the question is, who will be first to take the chance?

Fill me in as well, as I was under the impression that most of Hamilton's high income earners earned their keep in Burlington, Oakville, Mississauga, Toronto. What do these people do and for which employers in those office towers do they work?

[flar]

I'll fill you in a bit, below is a list of a small fraction of the offices in a few of the office towers downtown (Google is helpful, but I'm not going to paste every office in every office building here!). Some of the people that work in these offices probably make enough money to afford a Starbucks coffee or to shop at Best Buy. Some of them even live in Hamilton. There are also many, many law offices in Downtown Hamilton.

RBC Dominion Securities Inc
Old Republic Ins Co of Canada‎
Ernst & Young‎
Bank of Nova Scotia - Hamilton and Niagara Commercial Group
Stelco Lake Erie‎
Monaco Financial Group‎
TD Waterhouse Discount Brokerage‎
London Life Insurance Company‎
Cunningham Lindsey Canada Limited
Reliable Life Insurance Company‎
Stelco Hamilton‎
Imperial Parking Limited‎
Enviro-Core Inc‎
TD Bank Financial Group‎
Great-West Life Assurance Company
Aviva Insurance Company Of Canada‎
CIBC‎
Broughton Financial‎
Raymond James Ltd‎
Camporese Arthur & Associates‎
ScotiaMcLeod‎
SCM Adjuster Canada Ltd
Brady Financial Group‎
McLelland & Dean‎
MD Management Ltd‎
Mcgowan Group Inc‎
World Source Financial Management
Goodwin Financial‎
Murray Financial
Elkami Namik Financial
Nimigan Mihailovich Reporting‎
Popware Inc‎
Conant Financial‎
Solid Waste Reclamation Inc‎
E-Incorp Inc‎
Centre For The Evaluation Of Medicines‎
Assante Financial Management Ltd‎
Hardie Financial‎
Igneski Financial‎
Masters Insurance (Hamilton) Ltd‎
Desjardins Financial Security Independent Network/Dfs Investments
Jem Financial‎
Boiler Inspection & Insce Co Of Canada‎
Investors Group Financial Services‎
Business Development Bank Of Canada‎
Main Newson Ltd‎
Cameo Crafts International‎
Westpark Developments Inc‎
Assante Capital Management Ltd‎
David Hinds Financial‎
Claymore Financial‎
JKR Financial Group‎
Economical Mutual Insurance Company

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by flar

I'll fill you in a bit, below is a list of a small fraction of the offices in a few of the office towers downtown (Google is helpful, but I'm not going to paste every office in every office building here!). Some of the people that work in these offices probably make enough money to afford a Starbucks coffee or to shop at Best Buy. Some of them even live in Hamilton. There are also many, many law offices in Downtown Hamilton.

Thanks for actually naming some names.

I will grant you that there are a good number of law offices. A huge chunk of the businesses you listed are financial and insurance firms, which I am guessing are one-to-five person financial advisor/insurance agent type of operations. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is not quite head office or large business stuff in most cases.

All of the bank names are also essentially satellites of financial advisor/retail investing type outfits (RBC Dominion, Scotia McLeod, TD Waterhouse, generic CIBC), and are not head office type outfits or the capital markets arms (RBC Capital Markets, Scotia Capital, TD Securities, CIBC World Markets), where the big bucks flow.

Stelco Hamilton (and Stelco Lake Erie?) was probably one of the only true head office/strategy/mover and shaker/big business type of places on your list, but is no longer located downtown as far as I know.

Popware is interesting --- it's an asset tracking company run by a couple of local entrepreneurs that was purchased by Bell Canada. Hamilton could use more of those.

Imperial Parking might just be a lot.

The rest seem to just be one-off random type of businesses.

There may well be enough people on your list to support a Starbucks or a Best Buy, but I don't think so (particularly for Best Buy) and what you have provided more or less supports my contention that there is not much of appeal in terms of the general professional job market in downtown Hamilton ---- nobody's dream job is working at "XXXX Financial". Very few people in McMaster University's (or any other university's) professional programs actually go to work in Hamilton --- the overwhelming majority land jobs elsewhere.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by omro

Who the heck are employed in the big office towers down town and where do they spend their money? I saw plenty of suited people walking around outside the downtown city centre shopping thingy, or was that a figment of my imagination? I didn't note if they were young with money types though. They could all be low paid admin types for all I knew.

It's a mystery to me, because there does look like there are a few office blocks in downtown Hamilton that must have some sort of work force, unless they are majorly under utilised buildings.

Yes, the office towers downtown are under-utilized, as there is a very high vacancy rate (20% - 25%). In fact the former Stelco tower is 1/2 empty (giver or take a floor).

That coupled with the fact that many who work in the offices don't live in the area they commute in and therefore spend very little (no groceries, no big ticket items) and leave the core at 5pm each weeknight.

There's a reason so many parking lots exist in downtown Hamilton, because they fill them with commuters cars every day......... I'd bet you'd be hard pressed to find a large minority of these office workers walking laptop bag in hand home at the end of the day. They get in their cars and drive to the suburbs.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by flar

They drive to Burlington or Ancaster to shop all the time. The retailers want to get closer to them.

I'd argue that if they already drive to the retailers then the retailers have no interest in getting closer, as they already get their business.