NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

it's busy, but there are plenty of others outside of Japan that beat Penn Station, such as Gare de Nord in Paris, Hamburg Hbf, Frankfurt Hbf, London Waterloo, London Victoria, Gare de Lyon, Roma Termini, etc.

Penn Station is way down the list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_railway_stations

Penn Station, at least in normal, pre-pandemic times, had 700,000 daily rail passengers. Hamburg and Frankfurt didn't even have half that. Termini had around half that.

I don't know about the rest, but Penn is usually cited as the busiest rail station outside of Japan. I've been to every station you've mentioned and I'd be really surprised if any of those are busier, esp. given they're mostly intercity rail stations, and intercity trains carry far fewer passengers per hour apples-apples.

The logistics behind intercity rail movement is totally different than commuter rail movement. Frankfurt HBF, to take an example, has 4 commuter rail tracks and one commuter rail route passing thru. It isn't even the busiest commuter rail station in Frankfurt. Hauptwache is busiest (but has zero intercity). In contrast, Penn Station, most of the time, has 19 tracks dedicated to commuter rail.

Now if we're talking intercity rail, yes, all these stations are much, much busier than Penn, obviously. Amtrak is nothing compared to Western Europe.

[NYguy]

To further bring home my point about the housing, you can see here how this area is sandwiched in already by the city's push for more residential development...








The Penn Station redevelopment sites are highlighted below in between the rezoning areas...

[mrnyc]

5 is the johnny rockets block, is it not? maybe i am misremembering, but wasn’t residential considered for that at one point? or was it the duane reade site? if so, either one would seem to be easiest to redevelop next.

probably 1,2 would go for penn south after that.

the other sites can do site prep and wait for office bldg interest.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

5 is the johnny rockets block, is it not? maybe i am misremembering, but wasn’t residential considered for that at one point? or was it the duane reade site? if so, either one would seem to be easiest to redevelop next.

probably 1,2 would go for penn south after that.

the other sites can do site prep and wait for office bldg interest.

The Duane Reade site (site 4) is where Vornado previously said they would start first, with a residential tower. But Vornado changes plans a lot, so who knows where they will start. That being said, all of their sites have been nothing but placeholders for development for years. Only the 15 Penn site is cleared, but all of the other sites, save the Manhattan Mall site, are lowrise retail. When people speak about what Vornado will demolish, they talk as if they are these grand buildings. They are not.

[ChiND]

https://w42st.com/post/reimagining-penn-...d-alternative-to-abandoned-vornado-plan/

I'd love to see this happen.

It appears as though the state will use eminent domain to acquire the dilapidated properties on the west side of 7th between 33rd and 34th that Vornado does not own.

Also, having a park on part of the Hotel Penn site would be amazing.

If the state, in return for Vornado making all or part of the Hotel Penn site, let Vornado build much taller towers, it would be a win for the company. I'd love to see a colossal tower at the old Gimbels building that includes office, residential, and hotel.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by ChiND

https://w42st.com/post/reimagining-penn-...d-alternative-to-abandoned-vornado-plan/

I'd love to see this happen.

It appears as though the state will use eminent domain to acquire the dilapidated properties on the west side of 7th between 33rd and 34th that Vornado does not own.

Also, having a park on part of the Hotel Penn site would be amazing.

If the state, in return for Vornado making all or part of the Hotel Penn site, let Vornado build much taller towers, it would be a win for the company. I'd love to see a colossal tower at the old Gimbels building that includes office, residential, and hotel.

This will not happen. There are no height limits on the buildings, what's approved is the size of the buildings. The eminent domain process is also something that would have to be proven in court, and those properties aren't blights. If anything, the state would allow more mixed-use on the towers already approved. But none of that is guaranteed to speed up any construction. Vornado could start today on a residential tower, but they aren't moving to do that.

As far as the sites to the south, the state (when it gets around to it) would have to put out an RFP for those sites. I don't know that residential is going to give the same return as office towers in that location.

From the article:

“This is a vision, this is the start of a conversation, it’s not a final plan,” he stressed. The vision would also dovetail with the nearby rezoning of Midtown South as a residential district, which is under public review.

There is already some flexibility built into the plan, but again, nothing is happening. The City needs to get the rezoning of the surrounding area to residential, and let that process begin of new housing begin.

[Sky88]

Not a bad solution. I believe towers 5, 6 and 10 are at least 1,000 ft tall, while the tallest tower of all might be 1,350 ft.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by NYguy

This will not happen....

I know. I would like it to. The Hotel Penn will be an empty lot for twenty years. It's like Alexander's and Rizzoli all over again. Steve Roth might subscribe to Nietzche's "eternal recurrence" theory because things repeat themselves in his world.

[Busy Bee]

I think everyone knows my position regarding the potential for the 32 St-7 Av-34 St-6 Av lots.

[TKD]

Originally Posted by ChiND

It appears as though the state will use eminent domain to acquire the dilapidated properties on the west side of 7th between 33rd and 34th that Vornado does not own.

Why do you keep mentioning this? Vornado owns the whole PENN 1 block, that includes PENN 1 East and PENN 1 West.

[ChiND]

I hope that Vornado builds a mixed-use tower at 15 Penn with a smaller amount of office space that they don’t need a pre-lease for. It will be a shame for that huge lot to sit empty for twenty years.

https://therealdeal.com/new-york/2025/03...-simone-presses-for-penn-station-vision/

[NYguy]

Vornado has a master vision for the sites it owns that predates anything tying into the Penn Station redevelopment.

As does MSG, which is currently moving forward with planning for continued operations.

[NYguy]

Every few years, a group of people come up with the totally original, and very unique idea to move Madison Square Garden, as if that will magically fix everything that is wrong with Penn Station. Here's a hint - it won't. But that doesn't matter, these people already know this isn't going anywhere. I'll give it to them though, this plan is one of the worst I've seen yet.



https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/11/nyregion/penn-station-madison-square-garden.html

A New Pitch to Fix Penn Station: Move Madison Square Garden
With few signs of progress on a proposed redevelopment project, one group is hoping to move the famous arena.





By Stefanos Chen and Patrick McGeehan
March 11, 2025

Nearly two years after New York’s governor, Kathy Hochul, vowed to fast-track the long-overdue redesign of Pennsylvania Station, little has changed for the Manhattan transit hub that she once called a “hellhole.”

Two serious renovation proposals — one from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, the other from a private developer — have both been stalled for months, leaving some to wonder if the project was dead.

Now, an influential interest group is proposing a different approach: Move Madison Square Garden, which sits on top of the station, across the street and replace it with a much bigger train hall and a park.

The latest plan is proposing to pay for the construction of a new sports arena on a site that includes the former Hotel Pennsylvania on Seventh Avenue, in exchange for the right to demolish the current Garden.

The new train hall, unencumbered by the arena, could double the station’s capacity to 48 trains per hour, provide a suite of new safety and accessibility features and address riders’ biggest complaints about the cramped station, said Alexandros Washburn, who is leading the project for Grand Penn Community Alliance.

There would also be room to create a sprawling green space, similar in size to Bryant Park, that would effectively serve as a giant backyard for a new 125-foot-tall train hall.

The plan would require an as-yet unnamed developer to buy the site of the Hotel Pennsylvania, which was demolished in 2023, as well as several adjacent properties, for about $1.3 billion. The construction of a new sports arena would cost around $2.3 billion, and the new Penn Station would cost another $4 billion. Construction would begin with the new arena, so as not to disrupt programming. The entire project would take about 11 years.

But the project faces complex challenges.

Much of the proposed site for a new arena is owned by Vornado, the real estate firm that had sought to build up to 10 nearby skyscrapers, mostly dedicated to office space, as part of a plan to fund improvements in the area. The pandemic stalled that plan, and Governor Hochul announced in 2023 that the redesign of Penn Station would no longer rely on revenue from its development.

Mr. Washburn said that his group has met with Vornado about buying the proposed site and that they showed interest.

Then there is the Garden, which is controlled by companies led by James Dolan, the mercurial billionaire who has resisted past calls to relocate the arena. Mr. Washburn said the move would benefit the nearly 60-year-old venue because the new site would allow for easier truck access and other modern amenities. A move, he added, could also help Mr. Dolan secure a permanent license for the arena after years of negotiating temporary extensions.

MSG Entertainment, which operates the Garden, did not respond to requests for comment.

A spokeswoman for Ms. Hochul said in a statement that the governor was “laser focused on fixing Penn Station now” and that the state would solicit proposals from the private sector, but did not provide a timeline.

The M.T.A. had previously said that it would reach a critical design goal by last summer, at which point it would revise the budget and solicit proposals from bidders. But that has not yet happened.

Yet another plan was unveiled last week by Assemblyman Tony Simone, a Democrat whose district includes Penn Station, and other elected officials. Their plan ruled out taking any private property and focused on constructing more residential buildings centered around a large park on the former site of the Hotel Pennsylvania.

Mr. Simone called on Ms. Hochul to reopen the planning process and “engage the community on a housing-first plan.” Mr. Simone said he had pitched his idea to Vornado, and it had not been rejected.

A rendering of the redesigned transit hub, which would take inspiration from the original Penn Station, with grand columns and a large train hall.Credit...



*****************************************************************************





I can't imagine that any of these people actually have to come in to the city through Penn Station. Because I can promise you, what people are concerned with most is first, getting up from the platforms (which itself can take time because of crowding and lack of egress), and the getting up and out of the station itself. NO ONE is thinking about recreating a grand station from the early 1900's, because people are busy, and have places to be (and more times than not, are likely late already). This is just for people who fetishize the "olden times", and don't realize that there's a beautiful train hall across the street (Moynihan) that caters to long distance travelers. There was a reason the original Penn was as grand as it was.



https://www.6sqft.com/penn-station-propo...e-garden-calls-for-classical-train-hall/

[TREPYE]

^ most sensible plan yet, as it takes into account a new home for MSG. What is not clear is if MSG is going to get squeezed into the Hotel Penn site or the southern block is also going to get razed to give it an analogous lot to build on.

There's perhaps a little too much greenery.... I am more in favor of an outright replications at a smaller scale with some significant park space implemented in its immediate surroundings. One of the most glorious aspects of the original Penn Station was that the track platforms were getting direct sunlight thereby giving it a more ethereal aspect to its layout. But more important it held true to Penn Stations inspiration, the Baths or Caracalla; of which unlike this remnants of it still stand today.

Check out mini-doc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnDiAMSSwWQ

After watching this I am once again ASTOUNDED at the level imbecility, ignorance and impudence of the generation of NYC decision makers (developers and railway executive alike) of the late 50s early 60s. This station was built to last centuries, millennia, not mere decades.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by TREPYE

^ most sensible plan yet, as it takes into account a new home for MSG. What is not clear is if MSG is going to get squeezed into the Hotel Penn site or the southern block is also going to get razed to give it an analogous lot to build on.

There's perhaps a little too much greenery.... I am more in favor of an outright replications at a smaller scale with some significant park space implemented in its immediate surroundings. One of the most glorious aspects of the original Penn Station was that the track platforms were getting direct sunlight thereby giving it a more ethereal aspect to its layout. But more important it held true to Penn Stations inspiration, the Baths or Caracalla; of which unlike this remnants of it still stand today.

Check out mini-doc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnDiAMSSwWQ

After watching this I am once again ASTOUNDED at the level imbecility, ignorance and impudence of the generation of NYC decision makers (developers and railway executive alike) of the late 50s early 60s. This station was built to last centuries, millennia, not mere decades.

I think that MSG would have to go all the way to 34th Street. Vornado owns most of those properties, but the state would have to use ED to take the others.

I'd like to see the new arena have a classic design -- something like UBS but much more classical (e.g., columns, pediments, etc.).


wgna.com

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by TREPYE

After watching this I am once again ASTOUNDED at the level imbecility, ignorance and impudence of the generation of NYC decision makers (developers and railway executive alike) of the late 50s early 60s. This station was built to last centuries, millennia, not mere decades.

How often do you hear people say nowadays that they don't carry cash anymore? Or they don't need to. You may be one of those people. With contactless payment and phone based pay apps, let alone traditional debit and ctedit cards, it has made paying with good old fashioned greenbacks an act few and far between --- for many people other than the unbanked and niche corners of the economy at least.

It was like that with trains by the 1960s. The zeitgeist was all about believing jet travel and the superhighway was the future, especially in the USA. The old railroad was regarded as nearly obsolete, not to mention increasingly run-down and unreliable as the old fallen flag railroads cut service left and right with every passing year. With Penn specifically, by this time it was increasingly a commuter destination, not the opulant temple to travel that it was built as in a previous era.

When the decision was made to wreck Penn, the PRR was already headed for financial trouble and needed the money from the real estate deal and removing the burden of maintenance of the enormous station. Many if not most railroads were in the same situation, and PRR and later PennCentral would eventually fail in one of the most spectacular mismanagement stories in American business history and is used as a teaching tool for "no way to run a railroad".

It's a tragedy in hindsight, but when that wrecking ball started swinging into old Penn, for most people not architects or sensitive artist types, it was just "out with the old and in with the new". Progress. Apple Pay, not stinky old cash.

[mrnyc]

^ i heard some youths complain, and this was years ago, when they had walked into this cash only bar i was in, that only drug dealers use cash.

anyway, i am dubious about this msg exec gesture, but we’ll see.

restoring penn outright with a nuevo penn is of course the dream.

[ChiND]

This vile area must be redeveloped.



https://www.pincusco.com/mcdonalds-sells-penn-plaza-building-owned-for-47-years/

P.S.: I hope that Vornado bought this disgusting McDs.

https://octahedron-rectangle-xha5.squarespace.com/

[ChiND]

NYTIMES


Westsidespirit.com


This proposal would precipitate an INSANE amount of redevelopment, and this gritty, forlorn area would become incredibly desirable. According to the article below, this proposal could possibly get federal support.

Imagine the following rising together:

1. Penn;
2. New MSG;
3. Related’s Hudson Yards West;
4. 350 Park;
5. 175 Park;
6. 625 Madison;
7. 655 Madison;
8. 10 W 57th;
9. 41 W 57th; and
10. 1 E 57th.


https://www.westsidespirit.com/news/new-75b-penn-plan-this-one-pushed-by-trump-allies-GH4328239

New $7.5B Penn Plan–This One Pushed by Trump Allies
The new $7.5 billion plan proposes moving Madison Square Garden across the street into the empty lot where the Hotel Pennsylvania once stood and rebuilding Penn Station with the world’s largest train concourse inside and a green park on top outside.
MICHAEL ORESKES PENN STATION / | 12 MAR 2025 | 01:51

Officials who worked on the plan noted that Trump knows both Dolan and Roth and prides himself as a deal maker.

Trump’s Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy, has agreed to meet to discuss the new plan, Washburn said.

“FRA looks forward to reviewing Penn Community Alliance’s proposal for New York Penn Station,” a spokesperson for the railroad administration said from Washington. “And we will continue to engage with all stakeholders as the effort to modernize and expand this historic rail station moves forward.”

Washburn was an aide to Democratic Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who sent him back to New York to oversee the building of the new Amtrak train hall which now bears the Senator’s name.

One goal of the new plan, Washburn said, was to give commuters on the Long Island Railroad and New Jersey Transit a train hall as good as Amtrak riders have.

Another goal is to revive the classic architectural feel that was lost when the Pennsylvania Railroad, struggling to fend off Bankruptcy, tore down its original station, built in 1910. The railroad sold the right to build from the street level up, which is how New York ended up with an arena and an office tower on top of a train station. Amtrak owns the station from ground level down.

To unravel all that “highlights the role of a deal maker in this project,” Washburn said.

“One of the reasons why perhaps it’s been stuck to date because you have to have someone in place who can make a deal with the private sector who can make a deal with the public sector.”

Is that person President Trump, Washburn was asked?

“The reality is the Federal Government owns this asset. It is a Federal piece of property. MTA leases from them. MTA is a tenant. When it’s your asset it’s in your interest to make the best use of it.”

The Grand Penn Alliance has 3,000 members, Washburn said. Its principal financial backing comes via two Trump allies who share a desire to revive classic architecture, a topic Trump has embraced in his slew of executive orders.

One is Justin Shubow, President of the National Civic Art Society, who in Trump’s first term chaired the U.S. Commission on Fine Arts. He was removed by President Biden. The other is one of Mr Shubow’s board members, Thomas D. Klingenstein, the hedge fund manager, playwriter and philanthropist, who chairs the board of the conservative think tank, The Claremont Institute. He was a major donor to Republican candidates and causes.

“We are fortunate to have these connections to the administration,” Washburn said.

I’m also elated that all of the disgusting block to the south would be razed but for the gorgeous Church.

The 153 year old Catholic Church of St. John the Baptist near the corner of Seventh Ave. and W. 30th Street would be spared under the new proposal, but all the other buildings on the city block south of Penn Station would be demolished to make way for more trains in an expanded rail hub.

Keith J. Kelly

[HyperPower]

The day Madison Square Garden is torn down and we actually get a real Penn Station will be one of the greatest days in New York City history. Let it begin!