[Halifax] The Elevation on Robie (5858 Macara) | 63 m | 19 fl | U/C

[Corker]

Their website https://www.theelevation.ca/ says they are pre-leasing for late 2024.

[Keith P.]

They posted on FB today that 1-bedrooms start at $19xx.00/mo and 2-bedrooms at $26xx.00/mo.

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

They posted on FB today that 1-bedrooms start at $19xx.00/mo and 2-bedrooms at $26xx.00/mo.

Sounds pretty reasonable.

[ArchAficionado]

Originally Posted by kzt79

Sounds pretty reasonable.

Pretty reasonable considering the current state of the market.

I still find it upsetting that the standard now seems to be 50% of the average income (gross!) or more, to afford a (new) but small and scarcely appointed place to call home.

I feel like legislating some minimum square footage to be able to market a unit as a 1 bedroom would at least help with developers being forced to create units that are more hospitable to people who are likely to be stuck living there long-term as the housing market continues to race to the sky, well outside their reach.

I'm only 25, and this huuuge surge of rent prices in the past years means I'm now paying a higher % of my income to rent working as a professional engineer than I was working for 18 bucks an hour as a hotel front desk guy when I was 18. Good times!

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by ArchAficionado

Pretty reasonable considering the current state of the market.

I still find it upsetting that the standard now seems to be 50% of the average income (gross!) or more, to afford a (new) but small and scarcely appointed place to call home.

I feel like legislating some minimum square footage to be able to market a unit as a 1 bedroom would at least help with developers being forced to create units that are more hospitable to people who are likely to be stuck living there long-term as the housing market continues to race to the sky, well outside their reach.

I'm only 25, and this huuuge surge of rent prices in the past years means I'm now paying a higher % of my income to rent working as a professional engineer than I was working for 18 bucks an hour as a hotel front desk guy when I was 18. Good times!

That is brutal. There are some areas/cities where dual physician couples cannot afford a basic house. It is bizarre to me that we have (collectively) enabled/allowed the policies that created this mess.

[Keith P.]

Certainly housing has gotten expensive, but it has never been cheap. I recall 25 years ago when I was grossing about $75K/year living in a decent-to-nice DT highrise and paying $1000/mo. rent. After taxes, mandatory deductions, etc., I'm thinking that was about 1/3rd of my take-home.

[MastClimberPro]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Certainly housing has gotten expensive, but it has never been cheap. I recall 25 years ago when I was grossing about $75K/year living in a decent-to-nice DT highrise and paying $1000/mo. rent. After taxes, mandatory deductions, etc., I'm thinking that was about 1/3rd of my take-home.

25 years ago $1000 a month would go pretty far in terms of what kind of apartment you could get in Halifax. I had friends back then renting a 2 bedroom, 2 level apartment in a new building in Clayton Park for $700. They were a young couple in their 20s and while they mightn't have made much more than $75K collectively they lived a comfortable, if modest, existence.

Today, anyone with a salary of $75K (not many folks under 30 make that) who is looking at the rental market can expect rents starting at nearly double the amount you paid (which by your math would extract 2/3rds of their salary) for a pretty small 1-bedroom in the suburbs. Plus the expense of transit or car. In the city a small bachelor/1-bedroom is typically starting at over $2k. The one behind the agricola NSLC starts at $2150 apparently, who knows how many units are actually available at that price.

I would offer that contributing that much of a pretty healthy salary to very basic housing (and by that I mean exceedingly small) doesn't make for a very comfortable life. Or very strong prospects for ever owning a home, condo or otherwise (and all the social benefits that creates).

Incomes have not risen nearly as much or as quickly in the intervening years as housing costs, especially in the past 5-6 years, and this is creating a housing crisis that affects a much wider swath of society than the visible victims camped out in public parks. Housing might never have been cheap, but it was accessible to most of us in ways that didn't impoverish us or doom us to renting at exhorbitant rates indefinitely.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by MastClimberPro

Incomes have not risen nearly as much or as quickly in the intervening years as housing costs, especially in the past 5-6 years, and this is creating a housing crisis that affects a much wider swath of society than the visible victims camped out in public parks. Housing might never have been cheap, but it was accessible to most of us in ways that didn't impoverish us or doom us to renting at exhorbitant rates indefinitely.

Blame the federal politicians who were in search of more tax revenue to fuel their liberal, free-spending ways and opened our borders, driving up housing costs dramatically. Most problems citizens are suffering from can be traced back to incompetent political leadership. Throw the bums out, all of them.

[HarbingerDe]

You can't talk about how expensive housing has become without somebody who is paying an $800/mo mortgage for a 4-bedroom detached house in a desirable part of the city chiming it to tell you how expensive things were in their day.

With all due respect. It was not expensive. It was objectively not expensive to buy a home in Nova Scotia in the 2000s. That is not to minimize whatever hardships or individual struggles anybody went through in those days, but 25 years ago housing was objectively and mathematically about 2-3x more affordable. So in whatever scenario you lived through, empathetically consider that someone under identical circumstances today would be worse off... 2-3x worse off...

If you struggled to pay rent with roommates - the modern equivalent of you would simply be homeless.

If it took a decade of busting your ass to save a downpayment for a home - the modern equivalent of you would simply never own a home.

[HarbingerDe]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Certainly housing has gotten expensive, but it has never been cheap. I recall 25 years ago when I was grossing about $75K/year living in a decent-to-nice DT highrise and paying $1000/mo. rent. After taxes, mandatory deductions, etc., I'm thinking that was about 1/3rd of my take-home.

And today, somebody making $75k would have to pay 40% of their take-home income for a mouldy basement in Spryfield or live with 2-3 roommates to get anything even remotely approaching 1/3 of their income while living in a downtown high rise.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MastClimberPro

Housing might never have been cheap, but it was accessible to most of us in ways that didn't impoverish us or doom us to renting at exhorbitant rates indefinitely.

Absolutely true. 25 years ago, the choices were more that if you were struggling financially, you could still afford a crappy apartment in a rough part of town. Not ideal, but at least you had a warm place to sleep and a roof over your head, with a kitchen and bathroom at least. There were people with mental health or substance abuse issues living on the street, but there was at least enough shelter space so that most of them had a place to go, unless they chose not to go there.

I've lived here all my life, and never have I seen it as bad as it is today, in terms of people who have run out of options, and are forced to live in tents. I've also never seen the ratio of newcomers as high as it is now, anecdotally. Supply has increased slightly while demand has skyrocketed... and we all know what that does to pricing.

[ArchAficionado]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Blame the federal politicians who were in search of more tax revenue to fuel their liberal, free-spending ways and opened our borders, driving up housing costs dramatically. Most problems citizens are suffering from can be traced back to incompetent political leadership. Throw the bums out, all of them.

Absolutely. But it's as much a failure by the government to reign in corporate greed resulting in wage stagnation as it is their ineptitude with regards to respecting macoeconomic reality.

Wage stagnation means the same job you had at $75k circa 2000 probably is now paid $80 or $85k, even though someone today would need to be making $150k to have the same lifestyle you had on that salary.

I also understand what you're saying about housing never having been cheap, but I agree with the other poster about how this is a little tone deaf. It is massively harder for people in their 20s-30s today to afford the cost of living given what they're able to earn vs. what things cost, as compared to someone 55+ with either a paid off house or a mortgage payment for which inflation has turned it into a very modest % of their income to pay. If I was paying 1000$ a month for rent right now I would be chillin! And I'm one of the lucky people under 30 who make about $75k a year. (My rent is $2000). This rug pull, when not acknowledged by the older generation and instead met with a "it was hard for us too", is a large part of what leads to the anti-boomer virtiol, which while rude, is occasionally understandable.

[GTG_78]

Originally Posted by ArchAficionado

Absolutely. But it's as much a failure by the government to reign in corporate greed resulting in wage stagnation as it is their ineptitude with regards to respecting macoeconomic reality.

Wage stagnation is not a result of government not reining in "corporate greed." It is a direct result of federal and provincial government policies that prioritized cheap labour from newcomers. Corporations are greedy by design. They look to reduce costs the same way we hunt for sales. So they will attempt to pay employees less.

But the labour market was extremely tight after 2020. There was a likely once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for a rapid acceleration of higher wage growth by keeping immigration and non-permanent worker levels restricted (or reduced even further). Instead, the federal government permitted (and every provincial government encouraged) newcomers to flood the labour pool to mask how poorly the Canadian economy has been performing over the past decade.

[kzt79]

I agree with all the above discussion.

- people have always faced financial challenges, especially when young, some more than others
- things are objectively significantly harder today especially for young people starting out
- this is a direct consequence of government policies

All are true.

As recently as 2018 we had a couple dozen homeless people in Halifax. For the most part these people were severely afflicted with mental illness, addiction etc. Now there are well over 1000 homeless. Many of these are "normal" people who had this misfortune of being renovicted etc and simply can't afford 2500-3000+ rent on a low paying job. Now obviously some of these people will turn to alcohol/drugs in a brutal spiral... It's sad all around and worst of all the wound is self-inflicted.

Canada is the only G7 country with GDP per capita still below pre-pandemic levels. We have the lowest projected growth in the OECD over the next 10-40 years. The median family in the US has FAR more disposable income today than the corresponding Canadian family. It's hard to believe that a little more than a decade ago we had among the richest middle class in the world, compared to the mess we face today.

[Colin May]

The highest number of mortgage foreclosures took place when Pierre Trudeau was Prime Minister and mortgage rates were over 22%.
Uncontrolled immigration is the prime cause of the housing crisis and if you had made such a statement 12 months ago you would have been labelled 'racist'.
We would move to an apartment tomorrow if we were confident that our money would not run out before we die.

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The highest number of mortgage foreclosures took place when Pierre Trudeau was Prime Minister and mortgage rates were over 22%.
Uncontrolled immigration is the prime cause of the housing crisis and if you had made such a statement 12 months ago you would have been labelled 'racist'.
We would move to an apartment tomorrow if we were confident that our money would not run out before we die.

After years enjoying single family homes most recently a large lake property with all the accoutrements... I'm getting a little tired of the upkeep. Even outsourcing a lot of it entails managing those people (and their managers!). At some point I'd consider a "luxury" (lol) apartment or maybe one those nice Killam townhouses but the lack of assurance regarding long term stability scares me. Renting is a viable option in many parts of the world, but for that to be true here we need some kind of longer term tenant protections.

[Keith P.]

Re. some of the comments in response to my post: I never said it was easy to buy a home. In my case I almost waited too long to start saving for the down payment. It took many years. I never got any help from family or inheritances. But I lived a fairly modest lifestyle - combining work trips with a short stay afterward as a vacation, or visiting with friends in faraway places to save money. I recognize that if you are married and have kids all such strategies are out the window unless both partners make decent money because the costs are much higher in that scenario. But having said that, many such couples I know are making significant money jointly and should have no trouble saving for a down payment. It is all about priorities.

Old man shouting at cloud alert: one of the things that simply amazes me is how much money people waste on unnecessary things. Multiple Starbucks/Tims visits a day (I never cared for takeaway coffee and would drink the stuff in the office coffee room if I needed a jolt), bringing a lunch some days to work, and just being careful with what I spent money on. On the opposite side of the ledger, eating mediocre fast food every day of the week, sometimes multiple times, subsidizing bars and restos frequently, and just buying "stuff" from the most trendy thing they encounter online is a good way to undermine that. It adds up quickly and brings little actual value. Don't buy expensive new cars, and don't buy 2 cars if you can make having just one work for you. There are many other economy strategies out there and you can mix and match what works for you.

Start by doing a true analysis of your spending and pare away the junk. Set a budget, save towards a goal, and you will eventually get there. I used the Home Buyers Saving Plan back then and I see from advertisements there is a more generous one these days. It will not happen overnight but eventually you will have the nut in your hands for a down payment. The banks will happily lend you the other 90%. You will feel impoverished for a few years after moving in but eventually things get better.

Having lived in apartments for the first half of my work life and since then in my modest house I can attest that having a house is infinitely better. Yes, you need to clear snow in the winter, care for the grounds in the summer, deal with house maintenance, and keep the Bell door to door salespeople at bay (I can't believe they still do that) but it is all infinitely preferable to having to deal with the noise, smells, lack of sanitation and bad behavior of other people living in the box with you. Plus, you never need to interact with them.

Recently someone who does some work for me mentioned that he had moved to a new seniors facility. He said he hated it because (much to my surprise) the stench of weed that filled the halls constantly was disgusting. I remember when I was in apartments you would occasionally get a tenant nearby who was a tobacco smoker and that would seep into the halls, but this new plague is far worse in my view. Welcome to our brave new world.

[Mr.Zero33]

Any GDP stats I can find put Canada near the top amoung G7 Countries the past few years and moving to number 1 by 2025.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

But having said that, many such couples I know are making significant money jointly and should have no trouble saving for a down payment.

True, but the thing is, people are coupling up later and later in life.

[Patriots]

Canada GDP year over year is currently 0.50% behind many developed countries including the U.S. 2.9%, Australia 1.1%, Italy 0.90%, and Spain 2.9%…and no Canada is not expected to be #1 by 2025. Instead the reverse. Canada’s productivity is going in a bad direction, embarrassly so. J.T.’s simple mind thought population growth would support his spending spree. He was wrong as usual. He forgot productivity and business investment/innovation were key ingredients. We need to pay attention to these two factors but it won’t be addressed until a change of government policy of reducing taxes and encouraging business investment along with a drastic reduction in wasteful government spending is introduced.