Lansdowne 2.0 (Northside Stands/Arena Redevelopment) | Proposed

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

Because of this report? I don't see it. As auditor reports go, this is pretty much devoid of big findings. They are basically saying that the estimates are towards the low end of the acceptable range (which was already clear) and that delays could cause cost overruns (thanks for the insight)

Not because of this report. I have a feeling that once this goes to tender, the bids will be ridiculously high and the City Council (possibly a new City Council at this rate) might kill it.

It was a mistake to put all our eggs in one basket (the OSEG plan) and run with it. We will trip and make a big mess.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Not because of this report. I have a feeling that once this goes to tender, the bids will be ridiculously high and the City Council (possibly a new City Council at this rate) might kill it.

It was a mistake to put all our eggs in one basket (the OSEG plan) and run with it. We will trip and make a big mess.

No doubt that construction costs will continue to go up, but inflation and the economy are plateauing, so there may be reason for optimism on that front.

Not sure how we could go with anyone but OSEG when they have the teams that make the place viable.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

No doubt that construction costs will continue to go up, but inflation and the economy are plateauing, so there may be reason for optimism on that front.

Not sure how we could go with anyone but OSEG when they have the teams that make the place viable.

What I meant was we took OSEG's (I'm pretty sure) unsolicited plan (again) and ran with it. We didn't consider any alternatives like renovating the existing Civic Centre, other ways of adding residential, any other attractions we could bring to the site. With such a huge project that involves half a Billion+ in public funds, different options should have been considered.

But yes, of course, any plan has to involve OSEG, our partner in this whole scheme, but they shouldn't dictate what the plan will be.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

What I meant was we took OSEG's (I'm pretty sure) unsolicited plan (again) and ran with it. We didn't consider any alternatives like renovating the existing Civic Centre, other ways of adding residential, any other attractions we could bring to the site. With such a huge project that involves half a Billion+ in public funds, different options should have been considered.

But yes, of course, any plan has to involve OSEG, our partner in this whole scheme, but they shouldn't dictate what the plan will be.

Understood, that makes sense.

I seriously doubt that renovating the Civic Centre was a real possibility, as it would either be impossible or really expensive to bring it up to modern standards. I also buy the argument that the footprint of the building is way too massive, and we can achieve better use of the land by building new.

As for amenities, my hope is that the tenant mix can evolve over time. Hopefully the buildings are adaptable enough to make that possible without huge alterations.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Not because of this report. I have a feeling that once this goes to tender, the bids will be ridiculously high and the City Council (possibly a new City Council at this rate) might kill it.

It was a mistake to put all our eggs in one basket (the OSEG plan) and run with it. We will trip and make a big mess.

We need to be honest and decide how much we are willing to pay to keep a CFL and Junior Hockey team. Sunk cost fallacy has the risk of us continuing to throw money at the problem. Allow OSEG to build two market rate towers and let them decide what to build with the revenue. No other money from the City.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

We need to be honest and decide how much we are willing to pay to keep a CFL and Junior Hockey team. Sunk cost fallacy has the risk of us continuing to throw money at the problem. Allow OSEG to build two market rate towers and let them decide what to build with the revenue. No other money from the City.

…and how much we value a soccer team and a PWHL team and a basketball team and all of the other events that are held at Lansdowne. These are city facilities so I don’t see letting OSEG do what they want with them.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

We need to be honest and decide how much we are willing to pay to keep a CFL and Junior Hockey team. Sunk cost fallacy has the risk of us continuing to throw money at the problem. Allow OSEG to build two market rate towers and let them decide what to build with the revenue. No other money from the City.

I don't agree with that. We shouldn't do whatever they ask of us, but losing several sports franchises would hurt Ottawa's reputation.

Besides that, we still need a mid-sized arena to attract all sort of events. The Civic Centre, and to a lesser extent the stadium, are major parts of our tourism strategy.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

But yes, of course, any plan has to involve OSEG, our partner in this whole scheme,

Yup, it s a scheme all right. All the liability remains with the city and OSEG keep the profits.

With Senators Lebreton likely moving forward, then this will become a political hot potato

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Yup, it s a scheme all right. All the liability remains with the city and OSEG keep the profits.

Is this actually true? I don't see how the liability remains with the city, given that OSEG is responsible for the retail/operations/maintenance of the facilities.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I don't agree with that. We shouldn't do whatever they ask of us, but losing several sports franchises would hurt Ottawa's reputation.

Besides that, we still need a mid-sized arena to attract all sort of events. The Civic Centre, and to a lesser extent the stadium, are major parts of our tourism strategy.

Well if these teams are worth $100 million the Sens should be worht $500 million in terms of reputation and tourism. We may get the odd CFL fan flying here but Sens tourists would dwarf anything these teams can muster. I guess NHL is seen as rich and not deserving of subsidies. Which is kind of true but the Sens are at the absolute bottom in revenues in the league.

I am willing to pitch in especially if it means giving rights to build condos on the already commerical area of Landsdowne. I just think we should be more transparent about it instead of waterfalls and other finanacnial shenangians so we can pretend it isn't costing us anything.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well if these teams are worth $100 million the Sens should be worht $500 million in terms of reputation and tourism. We may get the odd CFL fan flying here but Sens tourists would dwarf anything these teams can muster. I guess NHL is seen as rich and not deserving of subsidies. Which is kind of true but the Sens are at the absolute bottom in revenues in the league.

I am willing to pitch in especially if it means giving rights to build condos on the already commerical area of Landsdowne. I just think we should be more transparent about it instead of waterfalls and other finanacnial shenangians so we can pretend it isn't costing us anything.

There are definitely fans that travel for the CFL and the OHL and soccer, but no doubt they would be dwarfed by what the Sens draw in. In my view, economic impact is a factor, but the bigger factor is that having all of those teams and the facilities to host big events makes the city a more vibrant and livable place.

The financial arrangements with OSEG actually make sense in a lot of ways, but they are really complex, not easy for people to understand, and they put an emphasis on profits coming back to the city. Profits aren't really the point of the deal, as the city shouldn't be in business to make money. People have focused on the fact that the deal won't earn the city revenue, instead of the fact that the city got new facilities and a bunch of new teams at a large discount. It probably would have been more politically saleable if the city just provided a one-time grant or loan for the facilities, as that would diffuse a lot of the noise around the deal.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well if these teams are worth $100 million the Sens should be worht $500 million in terms of reputation and tourism. We may get the odd CFL fan flying here but Sens tourists would dwarf anything these teams can muster. I guess NHL is seen as rich and not deserving of subsidies. Which is kind of true but the Sens are at the absolute bottom in revenues in the league.

I am willing to pitch in especially if it means giving rights to build condos on the already commerical area of Landsdowne. I just think we should be more transparent about it instead of waterfalls and other finanacnial shenangians so we can pretend it isn't costing us anything.

This shouldn't be a Sens vs 67's/RedBlacks/PWHL/CEBL/CPL thing. They are all valuable to our City. Minor leagues for sure need more subsidies as they could never come close to affording their own facilities. The Sens should get the City's support as well, but there's more revenue, they own 70 acres of land in Kanata and will have another 7 to 14 acres at LeBreton to work with.

Minor leagues will need direct financial support. Sens should get swift rezonings, loans, loan guarantees and tax breaks and that should suffice. There's a way to provide money up front but get it back over time.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Does any of this cash flow include removing and replacing the roof at the Aberdeen Pavilion, providing better HVAC, and restoring the 150 year old roof truss segments?

The Aberdeen Pavilion should be restored, interior fit up, and protected at the same high level as Parliament, imo.

Otherwise we'll lose the Pavilion, and the entire park space will be dull. This type of destination requires a draw that isn't just shopping and goodlife. Condos with every cladding type under the sun pasted onto the outside does not make draw-style architeccture.

Saw a story on CTV Ottawa news that the Aberdeen Pavilion needs major work to save it. Out in Brandon Manitoba there was a somewhat similar building there that was on the verge of being demolished and the Exhibition Society decided to save it and it turned out beautiful. Hopefully Ottawa will reach out to Brandon to see how it was done.

How it started


How it looks now

[J.OT13]

That is quite similar. Disappointing a building that was restored 30 years ago is once again in major disrepair when they guy who saved it at the time was Mayor for 15 out of those 30 years.

[Richard Eade]

The ‘restoration’ 30 years ago (it reopened June 27, 1994), apparently consisted of removing a metre-high pile of pidgeon droppings, removing all interior fixtures (dropped ceiling, etc) and any insulation. Then it was repainted with three coats of paint. (According to the Ottawa Citizen story: https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-wrecking-ball) All for the low cost of $5.3M.

It sounds as if there is an estimate of $6M for the new plan. Maybe it will get two more coats of paint for that amount.

[c_speed3108]

They did so a fair bit 30 years ago. I recall them bringing the main dome down to the ground.

That said the typical lifecycle of most buildings is approximately 25 years. Some components a bit more, some a bit less. So it's due for another round.