The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[JakeNB]

And don’t get me started about bike lanes after spending time there.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Not sure why anyone would think that tourists are not interested in museums. Just back from Amsterdam where we spent the better part of a day at the Rijksmuseum (which gets almost 3 million visitors a year). The Van Gogh museum was sold out for 3 weeks. Also spent an afternoon at the national marine history museum on the waterfront where they had not one but two tall ships that visitors could board and explore. But yeah, tourists aren’t interested in museums.

I find it staggering that Saint John and New Brunswick overall built thousands of tall ships, yet there's not a single one left tied at Saint John's harbour, or anywhere else in NB, as far as I'm aware. Not sure if there's any tall ships left floating anywhere in the world that were built in Saint John or in NB in general, but would sure like to find out!

In Nova Scotia The Oland family paid for Bluenose II to be commissioned in the 1960's, which is proudly docked in Halifax to this day and is a thing of pride for locals/ a draw for tourism.

The main attraction at the Manitoba Museum in essentially landlocked Winnipeg, is a ship commissioned by the Hudson Bay Company, built in England, and sailed over to Canada. With Saint John and NB's extensive history of shipbuilding, we should be able to commission and build the entire thing right here in New Brunswick... there's more than a few local partners that could get involved in financing the commissioning of a Marco Polo II to be proudly docked in Saint John Harbour.

Barry Ogden's team made a noble effort in getting their non floating half scale replica built, but we can and should do better than a ship that doesn't even float. Their non-floating replica deserves to be displayed at a prominent location, like Fort Howe, beside the harbour, beside the Port, or wherever else... but a floating tall ship is something that will actually drive tourism, be something that people truly enjoy visiting, and be a thing of pride for all New Brunswickers.

If there's one thing I hope people submit as feedback to the NB Museum during this outreach period, it would be to suggest: "working with private sector parters to fund the commissioning or purchase of a tall ship to be docked on the Saint John Harbourfront as a key piece of the NB museum revitalization"... would be a great way to quell complaints about Uptown being completely left out of the NB Museum project.

I vastly prefer the idea of a Marco Polo II being commissioned and made here in NB, as it would be more of a source of pride/ get more press attention, than simply purchasing some random tall ship; The latter option would still be better than the current situation where we don't have a single tall ship floating in Saint John Harbour, or have any tall ships visiting the harbour on any sort of regular basis.

If Nova Scotia and Manitoba can get ships built for their waterfront tourism or for a museum, New Brunswick can too!

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Not sure why anyone would think that tourists are not interested in museums. Just back from Amsterdam where we spent the better part of a day at the Rijksmuseum (which gets almost 3 million visitors a year). The Van Gogh museum was sold out for 3 weeks. Also spent an afternoon at the national marine history museum on the waterfront where they had not one but two tall ships that visitors could board and explore. But yeah, tourists aren’t interested in museums.

In fairness though, the NB Museum isn’t on the level of the museums you mention. Those are destination museums tourists purposefully book travel to visit. Have a shuttle then from cruise terminal. Ask any museum employee, they’ll tell you they had a small trickle of cruise traffic and that’s when it was right in front of their nose at Market Square. The massing of these buildings will be visible from the ships and that alone could draw them knowing it must be something special.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

And don’t get me started about bike lanes after spending time there.

Now I’m curious if you loved them or hated them

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

In fairness though, the NB Museum isn’t on the level of the museums you mention. Those are destination museums tourists purposefully book travel to visit. Have a shuttle then from cruise terminal. Ask any museum employee, they’ll tell you they had a small trickle of cruise traffic and that’s when it was right in front of their nose at Market Square. The massing of these buildings will be visible from the ships and that alone could draw them knowing it must be something special.

You're right that it's not at those lofty levels, but it does have potential to be one of the best museums in Canada, given its collection size and institutional history. That's incredibly exciting in my eyes.

I think the Douglas Avenue location is good. I'm an Uptown guy, I love walkable neighbourhoods and personally walk to work every day, but I've said it before - Douglas Avenue is very removed from the core. This isn't a late 20th century suburb or a greenfield site, it's one of the oldest parts of the city, on a highly-trafficked walking/cycling route in Harbour Passage, on-route to one of the only 2 ways across the harbour, and with incredible views. Not to mention the history of the site that has archeologic and cultural significance that dates back thousands of years. What a tremendous opportunity to highlight that cultural and natural history right there, rather than from a distance. I understand the appeal of two locations, but knowing a lot of the staff over the years, dividing up the locations is a lot of work and logistic headaches, and as someone mentioned above, even when it was a stone's throw from the cruise ships, those passengers rarely walked in off the street they all came via organized tours by bus.

As for the ship suggestion, sure it would be cool on some level, but I just can't get excited by it. Can you imagine what a wooden ship docked in SJ harbour would look like after just a few years? This is a rough body of water, and without constant annual maintenance funding it would be very rough looking and shabby in short order. The one thing we never talk about with the museum funding amount is that we're basically mandated to take care of the collection as a province. This is a public institution that was entrusted with hundreds of thousands of artifacts and documents, we have an obligation to maintain and protect them, and the current buildings just couldn't handle that. This pot of money is making up for decade of infrastructure spending deficits that let the both buildings become dangerous to the level that bordered on negligent.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

As for the ship suggestion, sure it would be cool on some level, but I just can't get excited by it. Can you imagine what a wooden ship docked in SJ harbour would look like after just a few years? This is a rough body of water, and without constant annual maintenance funding it would be very rough looking and shabby in short order.

It doesn't even necessarily have to be wooden, there were steel hull tall ships from that time period too, and it needn't necessarily be exclusively tied up at Saint John Harbour either... there could be a mooring for it to be tied up behind the museum as well, it's not impossible to traverse reversing falls. Moreover, it could visit other parts of the province as well, and be something the whole province could be collectively proud to call their own. Building a replica ship to be hosted inside the museum like the one at the Manitoba Museum would be hugely missing the mark here in the Maritimes... an indoor ship was the only viable option for Winnipeg due to their climate, here in New Brunswick, we have better options.

What makes you so sure it would hold up so significantly worse here in Saint John than the Bluenose II has in Halifax? It's a given that any vessel commissioned would have to be properly maintained, which is exactly what Nova Scotia has done with the Bluenose II. Their Bluenose II replica was originally commissioned by a rich industrial family in the 1960s and then donated to the province. Since then, all the maintenance costs have been covered by the federal government and government of Nova Scotia. The Bluenose II has travelled all over Canada and been a huge part of Nova Scotia's brand identity, and a huge tourist pull... The Marco Polo II could be all and more for Saint John and New Brunswick. The costs associated with the Bluenose II have absolutely been worth the investment for Nova Scotia, and you'd find very few Haligonians and Nova Scotians who think the Bluenose II's maintenance costs are unjustified and that the thing should just be scrapped.


I see no reason why we couldn't emulate something even better than the Bluenose II with a Marco Polo II. With the enough corporate and private sponsors to fund the commissioning, we could have a vessel built and put into service within the decade. According to Barry Ogden, it would be possible to build a 1:1 replica with a steel hull.

I could see the tall ship suggestion at least grabbing the museum board's attention and be something they explore more seriously than the suggestions for a secondary exhibition site located in Uptown Saint John, let alone any suggestions on the architectural style, etc. Shipbuilding history is New Brunswick history, and our museum should reflect that shipbuilding history better than how it was represented in the museum's previous incarnation at Market Square. Again, New Brunswick constructed thousands and thousands of ships throughout its history... I don't think it's such a stretch to suggest we could build one more. There's also the option of requesting one of the soon to be taken out of service Halifax Class Frigates to be returned to Saint John as a museum ship... definitely a lot simpler than commissioning a new vessel to be constructed, but I'd like to think getting both done could be possible!

[StatelyElms]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I find it staggering that Saint John and New Brunswick overall built thousands of tall ships, yet there's not a single one left tied at Saint John's harbour, or anywhere else in NB, as far as I'm aware. Not sure if there's any tall ships left floating anywhere in the world that were built in Saint John or in NB in general, but would sure like to find out!

The main attraction at the Manitoba Museum in essentially landlocked Winnipeg, is a ship commissioned by the Hudson Bay Company, built in England, and sailed over to Canada. With Saint John and NB's extensive history of shipbuilding, we should be able to commission and build the entire thing right here in New Brunswick... there's more than a few local partners that could get involved in financing the commissioning of a Marco Polo II to be proudly docked in Saint John Harbour.

If there's one thing I hope people submit as feedback to the NB Museum during this outreach period, it would be to suggest: "working with private sector parters to fund the commissioning or purchase of a tall ship to be docked on the Saint John Harbourfront as a key piece of the NB museum revitalization"... would be a great way to quell complaints about Uptown being completely left out of the NB Museum project.

I vastly prefer the idea of a Marco Polo II being commissioned and made here in NB, as it would be more of a source of pride/ get more press attention, than simply purchasing some random tall ship; The latter option would still be better than the current situation where we don't have a single tall ship floating in Saint John Harbour, or have any tall ships visiting the harbour on any sort of regular basis.

If Nova Scotia and Manitoba can get ships built for their waterfront tourism or for a museum, New Brunswick can too!

I'm not a Saint Johner, but I'd be up for a Marco Polo II. I know most of her history through that good song of hers. Of course, it's a little hard to push for the viability of a Marco Polo replica based on the Bluenose II when the Bluenose II is 16% the tonnage of what a 1:1 Marco Polo would be, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, and if it's viable I think it'd be amazing. Having a symbol of our province out representing us would be so incredibly cool. And, if the museum delves into it and wants to go the authentic route, they could set her down on her side in the creek next to the Courtenay Bay Causeway lol

In the same vein, I wonder if a May Queen replica, or another riverboat would have any viability to it.. probably not, but it's fun to fantasize.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by StatelyElms

I'm not a Saint Johner, but I'd be up for a Marco Polo II. I know most of her history through that good song of hers. Of course, it's a little hard to push for the viability of a Marco Polo replica based on the Bluenose II when the Bluenose II is 16% the tonnage of what a 1:1 Marco Polo would be, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, and if it's viable I think it'd be amazing. Having a symbol of our province out representing us would be so incredibly cool. And, if the museum delves into it and wants to go the authentic route, they could set her down on her side in the creek next to the Courtenay Bay Causeway lol

In the same vein, I wonder if a May Queen replica, or another riverboat would have any viability to it.. probably not, but it's fun to fantasize.

Wow, didn't realize the tonnage was so much different when the lengths of both ships was similar.

Have you seen the half scale replica of the Marco Polo at the Mariners' Museum in Newport News, Virginia? Didn't even know it existed, but can't even find a picture of it anywhere online.

The countless examples museums around the world with commissioned replica ships of their own lend credibility to the possibility of the concept. It won't be easy, but it is possible.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Wow, didn't realize the tonnage was so much different when the lengths of both ships was similar.

Have you seen the half scale replica of the Marco Polo at the Mariners' Museum in Newport News, Virginia? Didn't even know it existed, but can't even find a picture of it anywhere online.

The countless examples museums around the world with commissioned replica ships of their own lend credibility to the possibility of the concept. It won't be easy, but it is possible.

With the project announced and some initial renders, should the Museum have its own thread?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

With the project announced and some initial renders, should the Museum have its own thread?

I would think so, yes.

[sailor734]

Forget the eyesore that is Waterloo Village for a moment. As others have said, visitors rarely get there. However, I drove down Charlotte St yesterday and went past 99 King. Tattered, faded banners tied to sagging wire fencing.....broken sidewalks strewn with gravel and weeds growing up around the concrete barriers. It looks abandoned........oh wait.

I know cities have limited power with by-laws but surely there is something they could do to force a cleanup. At the very least a solid 8' wooden fence around the edge of the pit to hide the eyesore and a restoration of the sidewalks on Charlotte and King to pre demolition condition.

I also noticed that the section of sidewalk from Union to King Square was untidy with weeds growing in the brick inserts in the sidewalk. I'm not sure the city should be building more public spaces (Barbor's store site etc) when they can't or won't even look after what they already have.

edit

I know there was a 99 King thread but I can't seem to find it among the 21 threads listed under "Atlantic Provinces". Do inactive threads go somewhere else?

[darkharbour]

It wouldn't surprise me if they weren't doing much on Charlotte this year because it is about to be torn up next year to be re-built.

Agreed about 99 King though, the pit is getting worse and that fence is definitely not going to look very good after another winter of snow, salt, and probably a few plow hits.

Waterloo Village has a lot of good things going on though, I've seen a number of fixed up homes and multi-units, and there are a couple of larger developments on the horizon - including by one of the forum members here - so I remain optimistic about the future of the area.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

It wouldn't surprise me if they weren't doing much on Charlotte this year because it is about to be torn up next year to be re-built.

Agreed about 99 King though, the pit is getting worse and that fence is definitely not going to look very good after another winter of snow, salt, and probably a few plow hits.

Waterloo Village has a lot of good things going on though, I've seen a number of fixed up homes and multi-units, and there are a couple of larger developments on the horizon - including by one of the forum members here - so I remain optimistic about the future of the area.

Can Wilbur even afford a fence? Charlotte can't be rebuilt until his pit is fixed, I believe. Structural issues.

That's my project, and I am not optimistic about the area without immediate targeted action. Get the cops out of their cars and get the passed out junkies off the sidewalk. Close the meth depot by Tim's. There, I fixed it. Austin proposing mandatory rehab is a good step, but we cannot tolerate one of our poorest neighbourhoods having to live surrounded by this in the meantime. It seems every new publicly-funded program creates more misery.

The small scale improvements are encouraging. Paddock, which is really quite OK these days, would benefit from a 4-way stop at either end. Steepleview will be a big benefit on Cliff. Even Hazen is coming along a bit. But homeowners and developers do not have the power to clean up open-air drug crime. Even the most libertarian interpretation of the role of the state includes law and order. How are we flunking that so badly?

I'm no cop hater, but I work near their naptime zone (bottom of Charlotte) and frankly we would be better off deputizing one man per city block. Every couple of years they tell us they're going to start doing foot patrols, and every couple of years that foot patrol ends up being a quarterly stroll for PR.

Uptown being in such disrepair is new, though. There's supposed to be a city maintenance crew dedicated to the whole Uptown area, but they don't venture south of Duke or east of Germain. They mostly chat and sometimes sweep on Canterbury.

I am really not trying to be a whiner. I've put my money where my mouth is. I've invested everything I've got right here. Saint John has a lot of opportunity right now. And we're squandering it on $50,000 LED lights and plazas. The city was cleaner and safer when it was stagnant and almost went bankrupt ten years ago. What is the excuse? Transfers are flowing, population and tax base are growing, and so on. Council seems to have checked out on day-to-day quality of life. What are our property taxes paying for? Moncton has a much worse homelessness problem, but it doesn't seem as tattered at all.

Not everything is bad. Rockwood and Dominion getting some love for the first time in decades is great. The Port has gone from a dying liability to an internationally relevant strategic gateway and shows no sign of slowing down. Small developers are improving the South End one reno at a time. I've never seen more repointing and other facade work simultaneously.

[gtsoc]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

Agreed about 99 King though, the pit is getting worse and that fence is definitely not going to look very good after another winter of snow, salt, and probably a few plow hits.
.

The city/property owner may not have much choice to replace the fence once Hurricane Lee is done with it. One good gust of wind and that thing is coming down.

[cdnguys]

[IMG][/IMG]

[RaginRonic]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

[IMG][/IMG]

This pic gives me that great reminder of why Saint John is Atlantic Canada's hockey capital.

1973 Hardy Cup
1992 Allan Cup
2001 Calder Cup
2011 President's Cup/Gilles-Courteau Trophy
2011 Memorial Cup
2012 President's Cup/Gilles-Courteau Trophy
2017 President's Cup/Gilles-Courteau Trophy
2022 Memorial Cup

Never will get tired of saying that either. =)

[cdnguys]

NIMBY letters sent to PAC as it will affect their quality of life and render their homes unsalable

[IMG] a picture of[/IMG]

[MonctonRad]

You're joking right???

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You're joking right???

Letters in PAC kit. This is something a Monctonian wouldn’t be exposed to in general lol. We literally had folks trying to save a parking lot from having an $80,000,000 IOL HQ built on it. One of my recent personal favourites is senior couple living on Pelton Rd against a development for seniors on same street because they thought it was too far from the hospital for ambulances - the irony was lost on them.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

NIMBY letters sent to PAC as it will affect their quality of life and render their homes unsalable

[IMG] a picture of[/IMG]

Looks really cool, this one caught me be surprise I hadn’t heard anything about it