Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[esquire]

^ That's a good point, the Wanderers Grounds could never host the Grey Cup. I think 20-22 thousand would effectively be the maximum amount that they could squeeze in there.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

The Atlanta ECHL team plays in Duluth, near Alpharetta. There doesn’t seem to be anything arena-related in Alpharetta so I would suspect it would be a complete new build of some kind of “arena district” off the highway like what the Braves did a few years ago. I do find it bizarre that the main goal wouldn’t be having this new team play in State Farm Arena downtown, but I think they maybe don’t want this initiative to have anything to do with where the Thrashers or Flames used to play (maybe to avoid bad luck lol).

I imagine it has more to do with building entertainment districts (think Edmonton, Ottawa, or more recently Belmont with the Islanders) as opposed to building standalone arenas and hoping the rest follows suit. There's good examples of arenas footing wider districts, and I imagine it makes it much easier to get local and state funding for more than just a building for a professional franchise if the proposal is for a wider neighbourhood or district.

Originally Posted by esquire

A new shared stadium in Halifax seems like a much safer bet with the Wanderers around. But while the location is good, personally I find the current site to be way too cramped for a CFL team. I think you could comfortably expand it up to about 10,000 seats for the CanPL, but I think that's realistically about as far as you can go there.

Important thing to keep in mind at this point is that this idea seems like wishful thinking from the Halifax mayor exclusively at this point. Nobody from the CPL or CFL is proposing such a venture.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by thurmas

If you are Halifax you want a piece of land big enough to host a Grey Cup Wanderer ground is too small and short term band aid thinking. League doesn't need another team with Argos type attendance losing 10 million bucks a year.

I'm looking at an older image of that property on Google Earth with a football field on it. I just can't see how they build even a barebones CFL stadium around that. Especially when you factor in the extra 30-40 yards in length for the football field.

[quityourwhining]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I'm looking at an older image of that property on Google Earth with a football field on it. I just can't see how they build even a barebones CFL stadium around that. Especially when you factor in the extra 30-40 yards in length for the football field.

Simple. Bulldoze the bowling club and stables. This is about priorities. Halifax needs to get its ������ together. If not, time to focus on Moncton.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by quityourwhining

Simple. Bulldoze the bowling club and stables. This is about priorities. Halifax needs to get its ������ together. If not, time to focus on Moncton.

So that gets you half a grandstand on the north side and a few thousand end zone seats on the east. Still no room along Sackville St for seating unless you think a few rows of portable benches is suitable for a pro league. I agree Halifax needs to shit or get off the pot, but this location isn't it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ That's a good point, the Wanderers Grounds could never host the Grey Cup. I think 20-22 thousand would effectively be the maximum amount that they could squeeze in there.

I don't think this is a good way to look at it. This is a part of the public Commons and can be reconfigured. There's really nothing special about the Bengal Lancers' site configuration, Garrison Grounds, alignment of Bell Road, etc. If there were 15,000 seats there that sold out regularly (including for concerts or whatever) then there would eventually be enough political capital to modify that whole area. Just like how they cleared out another part to build a pool or the skating oval or whatever. It's been interesting to see how the Wanderers shifted the political conversation around this public land use.

The incremental expansion can be justified as a public project that is independent from the CFL. They can build something now and then in 5 or 10 years add to it. Just as they built the 6,500 seat mini stadium and are looking at expanding it today. If this isn't good enough for the CFL then so be it but my guess is that's, well, basically just a bad take, and the medium stadium would be strictly better than the small stadium whereas there would have been no progress on an imaginary Grey Cup stadium anywhere in Atlantic Canada.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Important thing to keep in mind at this point is that this idea seems like wishful thinking from the Halifax mayor exclusively at this point. Nobody from the CPL or CFL is proposing such a venture.

A simple 15,000 seat stadium expansion would fit comfortably within the municipality's regular capital budget and is within the range of what they've funded/contemplated in the past. The Wanderers have already been talking about expanding this venue to 10,000 or so. Hopefully they will commission a study on the best way to cheaply add a bunch of seats to this site in a way that allows for future expansion.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

A simple 15,000 seat stadium expansion would fit comfortably within the municipality's regular capital budget and is within the range of what they've funded/contemplated in the past. The Wanderers have already been talking about expanding this venue to 10,000 or so. Hopefully they will commission a study on the best way to cheaply add a bunch of seats to this site in a way that allows for future expansion.

From what I recall the Wanderers were looking for something a bit more permanent in the expansion bid, although I can't recall exactly if that meant permanency in the stadium itself or merely onsite facilities. I have a hard time believing that they would be satisfied with bleachers with a capacity of 15K when that's currently double what they draw and likely far more than they would otherwise need. 10K is a reasonable ask, IMO.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by someone123

The incremental expansion can be justified as a public project that is independent from the CFL. They can build something now and then in 5 or 10 years add to it. Just as they built the 6,500 seat mini stadium and are looking at expanding it today. If this isn't good enough for the CFL then so be it but my guess is that's, well, basically just a bad take, and the medium stadium would be strictly better than the small stadium whereas there would have been no progress on an imaginary Grey Cup stadium anywhere in Atlantic Canada.

From a CFL standpoint, a smaller stadium that lets the league establish a presence there would probably be fine. But for an owner who has to pay the bills, being able to only host a somewhat compromised, limited capacity Grey Cup game would be a significant sacrifice. Grey Cup games are typically major paydays for teams that can often offset operating losses. Tickets normally range from around $300-$1000 a pop, so there is a lot of money at stake. Maybe a 20,000 seat stadium isn't an insurmountable obstacle, but it doesn't really help the case.

I guess Tim Hortons Field isn't that much bigger (around 24,000 seats), but there is a lot of room for temporary seating/hospitality areas to bump those numbers up.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think this is a good way to look at it. This is a part of the public Commons and can be reconfigured. There's really nothing special about the Bengal Lancers' site configuration, Garrison Grounds, alignment of Bell Road, etc. If there were 15,000 seats there that sold out regularly (including for concerts or whatever) then there would eventually be enough political capital to modify that whole area. Just like how they cleared out another part to build a pool or the skating oval or whatever. It's been interesting to see how the Wanderers shifted the political conversation around this public land use.

The incremental expansion can be justified as a public project that is independent from the CFL. They can build something now and then in 5 or 10 years add to it. Just as they built the 6,500 seat mini stadium and are looking at expanding it today. If this isn't good enough for the CFL then so be it but my guess is that's, well, basically just a bad take, and the medium stadium would be strictly better than the small stadium whereas there would have been no progress on an imaginary Grey Cup stadium anywhere in Atlantic Canada.

I think over by the Oval is a better site for a permanent stadium, but I bet there is no political will for that.

The thing being overlooked when talking about number of seats at the current Wanderers Grounds, is those are temporary portable bleachers. The CFL isn't going to go for a stadium made up entirely of portable benches, no matter how you squeeze them onto that site. A permanent structure takes up a lot more room. Esquire mentioned THF and the 24k seats. And when I say seats, I mean chairs, not benches. Chairs take space. It also has suites, press boxes, actual washrooms, concessions, amenity spaces, locker rooms. It's a large structure that in no way would fit on the Wanderers site, even if you knock down the stables, lawn bowling and close Bell St. The north grandstand would be sitting on top of the museum in order to fit the south side inside of Sackville St.

And honestly, I can't see why the soccer team would want to share a facility with a CFL team that is triple or 4x the seats they need. I think it would be a detriment to the fan experience and hurt ticket sales playing in something that big. They need to come up with a way to build a fan friendly right-sized stadium where they are now and if there is a demand for a CFL stadium, find the right place for it elsewhere.

[someone123]

A while back I took some CFL stadiums like the one in Hamilton, placed them over the Wanderers Ground, and posted that here. The Hamilton stadium fits in between the current Sackville Street and the museum. And the museum is a small, older postwar building of no limited heritage value and shouldn't be regarded as an unmovable obstacle.

I think anything with more seats than there are now moves the city closer to a CFL team, not farther away. For example if there's a bare-bones 15,000 seat stadium that sells out it will be easier to justify 25,000. This is true for both public land use and spending. I don't think the idea that Halifax should "wait for the perfect proposal" and then pick it makes sense. I think if there had been an incremental plan to develop a municipal stadium going back to 2010 then there would already be a CFL-sized stadium by now.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

It's a large structure that in no way would fit on the Wanderers site, even if you knock down the stables, lawn bowling and close Bell St. The north grandstand would be sitting on top of the museum in order to fit the south side inside of Sackville St.

And honestly, I can't see why the soccer team would want to share a facility with a CFL team that is triple or 4x the seats they need. I think it would be a detriment to the fan experience and hurt ticket sales playing in something that big. They need to come up with a way to build a fan friendly right-sized stadium where they are now and if there is a demand for a CFL stadium, find the right place for it elsewhere.

Since Sackville ends at that block anyway (Summer), could it just end one block early (South Park/Bell) and give that road space over to grandstand?

I think there's an opportunity to get creative and build almost a two-sided stadium that could suit both teams needs. The simplest thought I had is, if you build camera stations on either side you could have side sit a few thousand that would be full for soccer, and have the cameras pointing at that so you don't see a 3/4 empty upper tier on TV, and the other side have a larger lower tier, suite/club levels/ and upper tier that can get you to the ~20,000 you need for CFL, and for CFL the cameras point at that so it doesn't look tiny ans barebones compared to the other CFL stadiums.

Then if you refine that a little - Soccer fans love being tight to field on all sides and hate open-ended stadiums like a lot of CFL stadiums are, and there seems to be a solid segment who like being right behind the net. So I think you could do something like taking the Wanderers proposed capacity of ~10,000, and evenly distributing that in a full bowl all around the pitch. At the ends it would be retractable stands that go right down to the soccer net, sitting on top of the CFL endzone. Maybe even cover a good chunk of it, really put in some effort to make this lower tier look good as a standalone stadium. Have a concouse/plaza/party zone at the tops of those endzone seats, you when you retract then you have an elevated viewing area that gives a good view of the filed - thinking THF's south end zone area but higher up. Then you have a relatively higher proportion of you CFL seats in the upper tier (but it wouldn't be as high up as a traditional upper tier if the first tier is lower, so still good viewing). Some of the ideas that go into the "inverted bowl" hockey arena design would play into this I think.

Took a quick attempt at chopping up some perspectives:

Starting point is THF:


Halifax soccer config - lower bowl is half as tall, upper deck is twice as tall, retractable seats out. (obv it would need to wrap better in the corners):


Football config with seats retracted:


Grey cup - with temp stands on top of end zone concourse/plazas:



For the small stand closest to view - you could throw a roof on that and make it the "main" stand for soccer:


And then if/as needed, could go nearly vertical with suites/clubs, like smaller version of the 49er stadium if you don't have the space to extend grandstand back from there. Picture that small mid tier of seats as the roof for the lowers:


One more edit: for an example of a stadium that takes "small lower tier, large upper tier" to the extreme, albeit not because of a phased buildout, check out Pay Pal Park in San Jose:

[someone123]

Originally Posted by jonny24

Since Sackville ends at that block anyway (Summer), could it just end one block early (South Park/Bell) and give that road space over to grandstand?

Yep. There's really nothing set in stone about the street alignments around there and it's all public land. And note with your design that not every part needs to be built at once. They would just have to plan for expansion. It's possible that if they commissioned a good study they'd come up with more creative options more closely tailored to the site.

Another small point is that while there's a bunch of surface and street parking around there, there is also a lot of structured parking in the immediate area including a 500 space garage that was built just to the north of the museum that doesn't appear in the Google view. I think this is actually a fantastic site for a stadium while Shannon Park was problematic, and the right thing for the city is a compact stadium in the urban core (near amenities like restaurants and hotels) that is served by a variety of transport modalities.

For the Wanderers, I would imagine that having an empty upper bowl would be a much smaller concern than having a permanent stadium to play at. And anyway I think this should be conceived of as a municipal stadium if the municipality is paying. If a sports team wants their own stadium they can buy land and build somewhere else, but I don't think that will happen.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yep. There's really nothing set in stone about the street alignments around there. And note with your design that not every part needs to be built at once. They would just have to plan for expansion. And it's possible that if they commissioned a good study they'd come up with more creative options more closely tailored to the site.

Another small point is that while there's a bunch of surface and street parking around there, there is also a lot of structured parking in the immediate area including a 500 space garage that was built just to the north of the museum that doesn't appear in the Google view.

D'oh! I was was having so much much with my PDF that I forgo to even say that! Yes, my whole ideas that that if you had a thought-out design in place, there would be no reason not to go ahead immediately with the 10,000 seat lower bowl for the Wanderers. That gets something actually done and in place, meaning it would be much easier to get investors on board for CFL ownership group. Suites / upper tiers could follow on if/as needed, and even if they never do, the city would have a good facility for HFXW/SMU/one off events.

[someone123]

The lower bowl part is really similar to what the city was already investigating. The main new point is to try to plan to allow for more seating in the future.

I think even the larger configuration is more or less a "no-brainer" facility given the size of the city and the events already hosted there. I wonder how many developed cities of 500k there are in the world that don't have a 10k stadium. Or regions of 2-2.5 million without any major stadium.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by someone123

The lower bowl part is really similar to what the city was already investigating. The main new point is to try to plan to allow for more seating in the future.

I think even the larger configuration is more or less a "no-brainer" facility given the size of the city and the events already hosted there. I wonder how many developed cities of 500k there are in the world that don't have a 10k stadium. Or regions of 2-2.5 million without any major stadium.

A smaller version of empire field in Vancouver (constructed for temp use while BC Place was being reno'd) would be perfect. They got 30,000 seats for $14.9M with a roof and half actual seats. I'm sure a 20,000 seats version of this could/would fit in the footprint available at wanderers grounds for 10M. And the 49ers idea gives room for luxury boxes, loge seats and player facilities. Realistically they could probably build a 30M stadium with most of the bells and whistles of the newer CFL stadiums.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

A smaller version of empire field in Vancouver (constructed for temp use while BC Place was being reno'd) would be perfect. They got 30,000 seats for $14.9M with a roof and half actual seats. I'm sure a 20,000 seats version of this could/would fit in the footprint available at wanderers grounds for 10M. And the 49ers idea gives room for luxury boxes, loge seats and player facilities. Realistically they could probably build a 30M stadium with most of the bells and whistles of the newer CFL stadiums.

The footprint might work, but the cost is mighty ambitious! You can save a lot of money if all the utilities are there and at the right scale, if the land was already stabilized due to past use, you don't need to weather proof anything, and you customize almost nothing. ATCO trailer washrooms, concessions, dressing rooms.

Plus that is 12 years ago, drawing supplies, temporary equipment from a megaregion of 6 million. When you only need something on a temporary basis, you can also rent a whole lot, and potentially resell what you can't rent.

[JHikka]

BMO a day before and on the day of yesterday's season opener:



Minnesota, on the other hand, got to play with an orange ball last night:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MLS/comment...c_home_opener/

[Oilkountry]

Good news for flames fans

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/city-of-c...ames-1.6307747

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Good news for flames fans

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/city-of-c...ames-1.6307747

Third time's a charm? Fingers crossed.