The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The freelancer they hired to write that trash piece (who never even bothered to interview any major utility execs) might as well be. That article flies in the face of reality where the biggest proponents of EVs in Canada have been utilities. The second largest charging network in the country, behind Tesla, is the Electric Circuit, owned by Hydro Quebec. And they only operate in Quebec and Eastern Ontario unlike Tesla. That freelancer took a bunch of anecdotes that warmed up his confirmation bias and ran with it. No actual statistics. No discussions with the major utilities in the cities he cited (Toronto and Winnipeg). No discussions with the charging networks.

I don't blame him for cashing in on ignorance of the topic though. I will say, I have a lot less respect for Macleans after reading that.....

What does a poorly run utility from another country have to do with Canada?

OK, so you're focused on just the Canadian EV market, a fraction of a fraction of the North American market. That makes your statement that "There isn't a utility in the country that isn't planning on upgrading their infrastructure to get a piece of the market" a bit odd. Given that BC Hydro, MB Hydro, NL Hydro, NB Power and Hydro Quebec are all de facto monopolies in their provinces why would they be chomping at the bit to add infrastructure. People literally have no other choice. If they add it it will be because their political masters decree it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

OK, so you're focused on just the Canadian EV market, a fraction of a fraction of the North American market.

We don't live in the US. The state of electricity distribution infrastructure in California is about as relevant to me as the state of such in Zimbabwe.

Originally Posted by whatnext

That makes your statement that "There isn't a utility in the country that isn't planning on upgrading their infrastructure to get a piece of the market" a bit odd. Given that BC Hydro, MB Hydro, NL Hydro, NB Power and Hydro Quebec are all de facto monopolies in their provinces why would they be chomping at the bit to add infrastructure. People literally have no other choice. If they add it it will be because their political masters decree it.

Your assumption that they are solely motivated by politics is wrong. Take Ontario. Why would OPG and Hydro One team up to build a charging network in a province where the government has been pretty hostile to EV adoption and the penetration rate is abysmal? These are also exchange listed companies now, so far less subject to political pressure.

On the substance of the argument, it's great that we have places like Norway, with extremely high EV sales share that we can learn from. Something like 15% of the road fleet is electric there. Total plug in sales share is at ~90%. Battery electric sales share is at 70%. As per Macleans freelancer logic, their grid should be a smouldering pile already.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We don't live in the US. The state of electricity distribution infrastructure in California is about as relevant to me as the state of such in Zimbabwe.



Your assumption that they are solely motivated by politics is wrong. Take Ontario. Why would OPG and Hydro One team up to build a charging network in a province where the government has been pretty hostile to EV adoption and the penetration rate is abysmal? These are also exchange listed companies now, so far less subject to political pressure.

On the substance of the argument, it's great that we have places like Norway, with extremely high EV sales share that we can learn from. Something like 15% of the road fleet is electric there. Total plug in sales share is at ~90%. Battery electric sales share is at 70%. As per Macleans freelancer logic, their grid should be a smouldering pile already.

Um, yeah Norway. Where their EV subsidies were essentially funded by pushing oil sales from the North Sea.

Norway's electric car drive belies national reliance on fossil fuels
Two-thirds of sales at end of 2020 were battery electric vehicles despite dependence on oil and gas drilling

Norway has a range of incentives to buy electric cars and plans to phase out petrol and diesel vehicles by 2025.
Elisabeth Ulven and Tone Sutterud
Sat 9 Jan 2021 08.00 GMT

Norway became the first country to sell more electric cars than petrol, hybrid and diesel engines put together last year, new data shows, with battery electric vehicles (BEVs) accounting for two-thirds of sales in the final months of 2020.

Norway has one of the world’s most ambitious green targets, planning to phase out sales of all new fossil-fuel vehicles by 2025, five years earlier than the UK.

It is quite a contradiction in a country that has become one of the richest in the world on the back of its oil and gas revenues, has made itself dependent on oil, and clings to further production even as the world increasingly rejects fossil fuels in pursuit of zero emissions....

https://www.theguardian.com/business...n-fossil-fuels

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Um, yeah Norway. Where their EV subsidies were essentially funded by pushing oil sales from the North Sea.

Okay?

But we were talking about grid stability.

Do you think gish gallop nonsense on an internet forum is going to stop OEMs from making EVs?

[Nouvellecosse]

I have to wonder how significant the need for grid upgrades will actually be considering that so much of EV charging is expected to be overnight when demand is low with peak daytime charging mostly limited to people who live in apartments or who are on road trips. Even cars that operate for long periods like taxis and ubers can probably go all day in an urban setting. Given an average urban traffic speed of 20km/h, a car with a 250km range could drive for over 12 hours.

[urbandreamer]

I like the design of the Arrival/Uber electric car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv5vS2ZNgfA

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I have to wonder how significant the need for grid upgrades will actually be considering that so much of EV charging is expected to be overnight when demand is low with peak daytime charging mostly limited to people who live in apartments or who are on road trips. Even cars that operate for long periods like taxis and ubers can probably go all day in an urban setting. Given an average urban traffic speed of 20km/h, a car with a 250km range could drive for over 12 hours.

Very roughly speaking, the addition of an EV to a home will boost electricity consumption ~20%. Even less when we're talking about McMansions.

The conversion to electric heat and hot water is a bigger concern for the grid IMO.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Very roughly speaking, the addition of an EV to a home will boost electricity consumption ~20%. Even less when we're talking about McMansions.

If you average out the demand for just personal vehicles, it works out to about the same as every house getting AC. We didn't have the grid collapse as AC was adoption grew through the 80s and 90s. I don't get why people think it'll be a problem going forward now. Utilities will invest in generation and distribution based on their demand forecasts, just as they have always done.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The conversion to electric heat and hot water is a bigger concern for the grid IMO.

Yes and no. As they upgrade the grids now, they can build in the capacity for higher loads later. A bigger issue is probably the generation for that conversion. But this is also why much higher home building standards are needed. A well built passive house only needs a hairdryer for heating.

[Truenorth00]

If they pull this off, I want one.

Canada’s Project Arrow EV To Be Larger Than Tesla Model Y, Feature Local Batteries



The all-electric Project Arrow SUV is taking shape in Canada with current plans calling for it to cost between $40,000 and $60,000 with up to 60,000 units produced annually.

The vehicle is being brought to life by Canada’s Automotive Parts Manufacturers’ Association (APMA) that represents 90 per cent of all independent automotive parts manufacturers in the country. More than 400 companies have expressed interest in taking part in the project and according to APMA chief technical officer Fraser Dunn, the association has started to go through statements of work and supplier agreements with dozens of companies.

Speaking with Auto News, Dunn revealed that Project Arrow will sit between the Tesla Model Y and Model X in terms of size. The vehicle will also be made up of eight mega-stampings that are laser-welded together. It will also feature magnesium mega-castings for the front and rear frames, inspired by the Tesla Model Y.

Whereas most other EVs on the market have batteries sourced from Asian suppliers, Project Arrow’s battery will feature cylindrical cells from VoltaXplore, a joint venture between Martinrea International and Montreal-based graphene firm NanoXplore Inc. It will also employ technology from the Ontario Tech University and its Automotive Center of Excellence in Oshawa.

Dunn added that the engineers behind Project Arrow are also targeting at least Level 3 autonomy. He also revealed that it will have a relatively simple design free of the superfluous parts used by most modern EVs.

“You just have to drive down the road nowadays and any SUV on the road has plastic bits on plastic bits on plastic bits for no reason,” he said. “Even structural elements that are normally hidden away behind plastic trim will be on show and become part of the design.”

The APMA intends on unveiling a drivable prototype next December and could showcase it to the world at CES 2023.

https://www.carscoops.com/2021/12/ca...batteries/amp/

[hipster duck]

^I hope they pull that off. I hope that the battery tech is at least somewhat competitive with stuff coming out of China. Even if it's temporarily inferior, I'd support buying a Canadian-made EV battery so that we can cultivate enough of a sector to keep auto manufacturing alive here.

[Truenorth00]

If it really has laser welded magnesium castings and graphene batteries, with a base price of $50k, that's a lot more than just "competitive with stuff from China".

[WarrenC12]

I'm not sure if I'd put my money down, but at a minimum hopefully they are building a ton of knowledge and experience in EVs.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Going big on Mg castings + battery pack fire suppression issues sounds like a fireman's nightmare, though.

Regardless, it sounds cool. I hope they can do what they are saying they will do.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Going big on Mg castings + battery pack fire suppression issues sounds like a fireman's nightmare, though.

It's Mg alloys. Not pure Magnesium.

Also, battery fires are rare. And will be even more rare with newer batteries (like the graphene batteries proposed here).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's Mg alloys. Not pure Magnesium.

Also, battery fires are rare. And will be even more rare with newer batteries (like the graphene batteries proposed here).

That's good to know!

[canucklehead2]

Project Arrow and Magna should partner to get this built! Maybe take over one of the under capacity facilities off one of the others. Or reactivate Hyundai Bromont which was designed for 100,000 cars per year yet only operated for less than 5 years at partial capacity. I'd love one! AWD electrics are the type of vehicles I'm looking at these days.

[Nouvellecosse]

That vehicle is very interesting, but not something I'd personally consider buying. I just wish a Canadian company was working on something more like the Protera car. Something that focuses on being lightweight and ultra efficient. I feel like so many electric car makers are basically making their sole goal to be the replication of the basic ICE car experience rather than using the opportunity to consider totally new ways of doing things.

Yes the fossil fuel component is the biggest problem with traditional cars, but it isn't the only problem. They are too large, too heavy and too resource intensive to be a sustainable part of an 8 billion person world. It's important to remember that while climate change is currently the most pressing issue, it isn't the only aspect of sustainability that needs attention. Using the ecological footprint calculator to determine the number of earths that would be required to support the planet if everyone lived like me, it shows that with my current lifestyle we'd need 2.2 earths which is only about 1/2 the average for Canada.

I don't currently have a car but I sometimes rent so as an estimate I said that I drive an average of 26km per week with a 6L/100km vehicle. I went back and re-calculated by reducing the fuel efficiency of the vehicle by 2/3 from 6 to 2/100km (about that of the Hyundai Kona EV) while tripling the distance traveled. The outcome is that rather than staying about the same, my ecological footprint changed from 2.2 to 3.4. More than an entire earth more. Which doesn't really surprise me because while a much more efficient vehicle that uses 1/3 the energy will emit significantly less carbon, if I drove three times more it require far more vehicles to be produced. And while an EV may last longer than an ICE vehicle, t's probably not 3x longer.

Overall, I agree that changing people's behaviours is hard and any improvement is valuable. I also agree that it isn't really the place of a private business to induce consumer behavioural change. But with that being said, it needs to be somebody's place because the change needs to happen if civilization is going to sustain itself over the medium and long term.

The cool thing is that Toronto-based Daymak has proposed an efficient 3-wheeled EV that hopefully will reach production. It isn't as efficient as the Protera car, but still better than conventional cars and is something I'd consider buying depending on my lifestyle in the medium term. Daymak got its start by making ebikes (one of which i bought) and mobility scooters, so they're an established company even though they've never attempted something like this before. I'll definitely be watching closely.

[Truenorth00]

Smaller vehicles don't sell. Especially in North America. That's why the first electric Mustang is a CUV.

The best car is no car. The lowest impact cities are always going to be the walkable ones. After that comes cities with lots of quality public transport. Lastly a city filled with electric cars.

Building light cars isn't going to be successful if nobody buys them.

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Smaller vehicles don't sell. Especially in North America. That's why the first electric Mustang is a CUV.

The best car is no car. The lowest impact cities are always going to be the walkable ones. After that comes cities with lots of quality public transport. Lastly a city filled with electric cars.

Building light cars isn't going to be successful if nobody buys them.

North Americans buy millions of small cars every year. The Honda Civic alone sells 40-50k units annually just in Canada. Lets not delude ourselves into thinking nobody buys cars... they do. Trucks and SUVS are def more popular here but cars sell quite well.

If you live in a major metropolis then I can buy your anti car argument. But if you live in the suburbs, or the small towns/country then a vehicle of some sort is absolutely essential. Many people who live in cities choose to own a car for the freedom it brings to pick up and literally go anywhere you want on a whim.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by travis3000

If you live in a major metropolis then I can buy your anti car argument. But if you live in the suburbs, or the small towns/country then a vehicle of some sort is absolutely essential. Many people who live in cities choose to own a car for the freedom it brings to pick up and literally go anywhere you want on a whim.

What it comes down to is, if we're going to achieve sustainability then things need to change. That part isn't an argument but just a fact. The argument part is that one of the changes should be to design or redesign the places where we live to allow people to drive less and to walk, bike and use transit more. The fact that things aren't currently designed in such a way has little to do with an argument about how things should be designed.

But yes you're absolutely right that rural and suburban areas are often less sustainable than urban areas for the very reason that transportation is more energy intensive. In the book Green Metropolis author David Owens explains this in great detail in the chapter titled "More Like Manhattan". He explains that despite often not appearing as green or natural in people's minds, dense metropolises are significantly more sustainable to live in than either rural or suburban areas.