Most Canadian / Least Canadian

[wave46]

Originally Posted by someone123

I agree (with the caveat that the Maritimes are not exactly close to anything else) although I also think this perspective has some "Canadian bias", and it's something you will find Atlantic Canadian historians dispute.

Canadians outside of the region tend to view Atlantic Canada as being on the margins and being isolated. But they are also connected to the rest of the world, not just other parts of Canada. For most of their history, the connection to the Atlantic world was more important than connection to Canada. In particular the focus was on a great circle route connecting the Caribbean with the US Eastern Seaboard, the Maritimes and Newfoundland, then Western Europe and Africa.

The continues on today with the cruise industry (which may be dead now, who knows), shipping, and international navies. Some of the most interesting times in Halifax were when an aircraft carrier would dump 2,000 sailors form the UK or France on the waterfront.

There is also that time period bias I alluded to earlier with Canadians acting like 1850 was practically prehistoric. It is not so in the East Coast historical consciousness.

The gaze of the world drifted westwards in the era of mass media, as did political winds. Especially post-1970s. In Canada, that meant Alberta and BC started to dominate national discourse at the expense of the Atlantic provinces.

Canada was a very Eastern focused nation prior to the 1970s. Between WWI, WWII and the Cold War, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland were strategic points between North America and Europe. Well, that changed. Europe does Europe now. Canada hardly holds a special position in London's heart today. The Berlin Wall came down. Immigration changed from European to Asian-based.

You even might compare it to airplanes that had to refuel in Gander. Gander was once the first place many people made landfall in North America - it was even the Beatles' first stop. Well, time moved on. Gander wasn't needed with longer-range planes. When you could just overfly on your way to bigger and better, you'll be overlooked as just the tiny lights below.

So, yeah, the story of Atlantic Canada gets overlooked in the modern world, because most of us are flying over it today, where before we had to stop for important reasons.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by wave46

The gaze of the world drifted westwards in the era of mass media, as did political winds. Especially post-1970s. In Canada, that meant Alberta and BC started to dominate national discourse at the expense of the Atlantic provinces.

Canada was a very Eastern focused nation prior to the 1970s. Between WWI, WWII and the Cold War, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland were strategic points between North America and Europe. Well, that changed. Europe does Europe now. Canada hardly holds a special position in London's heart today. The Berlin Wall came down. Immigration changed from European to Asian-based.

You even might compare it to airplanes that had to refuel in Gander. Gander was once the first place many people made landfall in North America - it was even the Beatles' first stop. Well, time moved on. Gander wasn't needed with longer-range planes. When you could just overfly on your way to bigger and better, you'll be overlooked as just the tiny lights below.

So, yeah, the story of Atlantic Canada gets overlooked in the modern world, because most of us are flying over it today, where before we had to stop for important reasons.

From this vantage point it still is.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

But yeah I find the whole sneakers/college hoodie getup a lot less prevalent in Asia than in Europe as a whole among American travellers (for obvious climatological reasons, and for less obvious reasons being that Asia attracts more seasoned travellers?). So that marker is a bit harder to spot.

I get that Asia contains tropical regions that Europe lacks, but isn't much of northeast Asia (which is what many North Americans think of as "Asia" like Korea, Japan, northern China) also very Canadian-like in climate (and colder than comparable parts of Europe in the winter)?

Looking up climate stats, don't places like Beijing, Seoul etc. have freezing winters (lots of soldiers got frostbite in bitterly cold conditions in the Korean war), and doesn't Harbin have a Winnipeg-like climate with a festival of ice sculptures like Quebec city?

I'd imagine wearing a hoodie could be comfortable then in some of those climates (even if that's not part of the local fashion culture).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Denscity

From this vantage point it still is.

"Canada was a very eastern centrally focussed nation"

Fixed it for you

[someone123]

Originally Posted by wave46

So, yeah, the story of Atlantic Canada gets overlooked in the modern world, because most of us are flying over it today, where before we had to stop for important reasons.

This is undeniable but I am talking about it more in terms of its historical impact on Atlantic Canada.

Arguing that Newfoundland is a big outlier but the Maritimes are some of the closest areas to the Canadian mainstream is very strange. Like I said, most of you guys would not be able to tell the difference between a NL and Cape Breton accent, or between NL or even the people I used to encounter along the near south shore of NS. Or for that matter a lot of working class Halifax suburbanites.

Example campy Cape Breton drag queen video playing up CB accent with fiddle music in background:

• Video Link

Does this more closely resemble a cultural production of (a) Newfoundland or (b) Saskatchewan?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is undeniable but I am talking about it more in terms of its historical impact on Atlantic Canada.

Arguing that Newfoundland is a big outlier but the rest of the Maritimes are some of the closest areas to the Canadian mainstream is very strange. Like I said, most of you guys would not be able to tell the difference between a NL and Cape Breton accent, or between NL or even the people I used to encounter along the near south shore of NS. Or for that matter a lot of working class Halifax suburbanites.

Example campy Cape Breton drag queen video playing up CB accent with fiddle music in background:

In an extreme sense, I guess.

I don't go out to Nova Scotia and think I'm on some other planet. Sure, there's more accent and to an extent its own thing, but I'm not sensing a wholescale cultural difference between old-school Ontario and NS, probably because many Ontarians are descended from there. *raises hand*

I come back to the concept of 'median' Canadian. Nova Scotians and New Brunswickers are probably not far off the mark from that median. Maybe the median is drifting away from them, perhaps. Newfoundlanders moreso, but that's a function of isolation and history.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by wave46

I come back to the concept of 'median' Canadian. Nova Scotians and New Brunswickers are probably not far off the mark from that median. Maybe the median is drifting away from them, perhaps. Newfoundlanders moreso, but that's a function of isolation and history.

I agree that NL is farther out but I don't know why you would draw an arbitrary line between NL and NS but not ON and NS.

Another relevant consideration: look at election results or polling data. Take ON, NL, NS. See what the odd province out is.

Or another example. Look at the physical buildings and infrastructure in Halifax and St. John's then compare to an Ontario or Western city. Another fun one is to look at pre-war legislature buildings constructed in different provinces. NL's Colonial Building is a UK-inspired structure that is very similar to Province House in Halifax or Charlottetown, and dissimilar to all others in Canada.

I think one factor that misleads people is that the rural Maritimes have more agriculture and mill towns and that these are more reminiscent of Ontario. But the Maritimes have fishing-based areas too and those closely resemble similar parts of NL. I am not sure I would consider these differences to indicate distinct cultures between regions; I think you should compare apples to apples.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't know why you would draw an arbitrary line between NL and NS but not ON and NS.

Another relevant consideration: look at election results or polling data. Take ON, NL, NS. See what the odd province out is.

Or another example. Look at the physical buildings and infrastructure in Halifax and St. John's then compare to an Ontario or Western city.

I didn't draw an arbitrary line. I have a continuum and different places fall on different parts of that continuum for different facets. NL is farther away from that median than NS. I don't think most would disagree.

We could argue forever on arbitrary facets. Building design, politics, slang, accents, language.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is undeniable but I am talking about it more in terms of its historical impact on Atlantic Canada.

Arguing that Newfoundland is a big outlier but the Maritimes are some of the closest areas to the Canadian mainstream is very strange. Like I said, most of you guys would not be able to tell the difference between a NL and Cape Breton accent, or between NL or even the people I used to encounter along the near south shore of NS. Or for that matter a lot of working class Halifax suburbanites.

Example campy Cape Breton drag queen video playing up CB accent with fiddle music in background:

• Video Link

Does this more closely resemble a cultural production of (a) Newfoundland or (b) Saskatchewan?

I don't entirely disagree with you but aren't a good number of Cape Bretoners actually descended from Newfoundlanders?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by wave46

I didn't draw an arbitrary line. I have a continuum and different places fall on different parts of that continuum for different facets. NL is farther away from that median than NS. I don't think most would disagree.

We could argue forever on arbitrary facets. Building design, politics, slang, accents, language.

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Well I don't disagree with the idea that there's a continuum and that NL is farther along it than NS (although I think NS also has some of its own culture, not just a blend of NL and ON). I think it approximately matches the geography.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't entirely disagree with you but aren't a good number of Cape Bretoners actually descended from Newfoundlanders?

I really doubt this culture substantially traces back to Newfoundland and not just directly back to the British Isles.

For one thing it is strongest in rural towns in Cape Breton and I doubt they had an influx of Newfoundlanders. In some of them, virtually everybody traces their ancestry back to a few ships that came across the Atlantic. In the case of CB I think Scotland was the most common point of origin.

The "island mentality" by the way, the notion of cultural distinction from the mainland, is very similar between CB or PEI and the mainland and NL and the mainland. PEI and CB have bridges now and NL doesn't though of course.

[Acajack]

I have always found some similarities between that stuff and Geordie culture on the border between England and Scotland:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMgul9LPyU8

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

"Canada was a very eastern centrally focussed nation"

Fixed it for you

Ha cheers. To us Ontario and Quebec are east and you are the far east.
To many the prairies are west and we are far west/in another country.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Denscity

To many the prairies are west and we are far west/in another country.

I don't think this is a common view in other parts of Canada. Either that there's a "west" and "far west" or that BC is like another country.

Some British Columbians dislike being lumped in with the Prairies and that sentiment is similar to Ontario being called "Eastern Canada". And Atlantic Canada isn't called the "far east" here, it's most commonly forgotten about.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think this is a common view in other parts of Canada. Either that there's a "west" and "far west" or that BC is like another country.

Some British Columbians dislike being lumped in with the Prairies and that sentiment is similar to Ontario being called "Eastern Canada". And Atlantic Canada isn't called the "far east" here, it's most commonly forgotten about.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone in Canada describe BC or the west coast as a foreign country, and I don't think it is a common sentiment.

Except for Quebec separatists of course. But to them Cornwall and Ottawa are in a foreign country, so...

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think I have ever heard anyone in Canada describe BC or the west coast as a foreign country, and I don't think it is a common sentiment.

Except for Quebec separatists of course. But to them Cornwall and Ottawa are in a foreign country, so...

More that i've heard a few people from east of the Rockies describe us as either "foreign" or at least exotic. Feeling like New Zealand I've heard that 3 times at least.
And "far east" isnt a name i give them only a description.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

I'm pretty sure that isn't even hyperbole, at least from a raw hardware standpoint.

Yep

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Denscity

And "far east" isnt a name i give them only a description.

In Ontario you often hear "down east" or "out east" for Atlantic Canada.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by someone123

I really doubt this culture substantially traces back to Newfoundland and not just directly back to the British Isles.

For one thing it is strongest in rural towns in Cape Breton and I doubt they had an influx of Newfoundlanders. In some of them, virtually everybody traces their ancestry back to a few ships that came across the Atlantic. In the case of CB I think Scotland was the most common point of origin.

The "island mentality" by the way, the notion of cultural distinction from the mainland, is very similar between CB or PEI and the mainland and NL and the mainland. PEI and CB have bridges now and NL doesn't though of course.

I’m in a weird position here so I just want to say I mostly agree with Someone123 on this general subject (NL being similar to NS) but prior to Confederation, Canada in its census used to explicitly count “Foreign Born (Newfoundland)” residents. So that’s just the ones born here, not their children. In NS, several communities were up to 10% Newfoundland born in the 1920s, especially on Cape Breton.

Even cities like TO and MTL had 2-5K Newfoundland-born residents back when they only had a few hundred thousand total.

1920s is the only period it’s this strong because that was a mass exodus similar to cod moratorium in the 90s. If they’d counted these people’s Canadian-born children, though, the percentages would probably be even higher in the 40s.

A couple of examples (via FB)

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In Ontario you often hear "down east" or "out east" for Atlantic Canada.

I've used out east a few times to describe Ontario and Quebec. And beyond that i use "the Maritimes" which once included Newfoundland in my mind until Sig taught us that that is incorrect.