Highway 69 conversion

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Okay. In that case, scrap the first one.

That is more like it. I predict that unless the project has been started, you will see nothing new till after the next election.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is more like it. I predict that unless the project has been started, you will see nothing new till after the next election.

Lol now I’m starting to understand sonysnob’s prediction that nothing will be twinned in the next 3 years other than Highway 69 between Highway 607 and Highway 522.

[sonysnob]

The 400 is going to get done. The project isn’t going to get scaled back either. It’s designed, it’s got EA approval (and needed Canadian EA approval in sections as well) so it’s not going to be scaled back in any way. Don’t forget, the push to extend the 400 started under the Eves PC government back in the early 2000s and after McGuinty was elected there was concern that he’d pull the plug on it as well. There’s not that much left to build on the 400 so it’s going to be fine.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The 400 is going to get done. The project isn’t going to get scaled back either. It’s designed, it’s got EA approval (and needed Canadian EA approval in sections as well) so it’s not going to be scaled back in any way. Don’t forget, the push to extend the 400 started under the Eves PC government back in the early 2000s and after McGuinty was elected there was concern that he’d pull the plug on it as well. There’s not that much left to build on the 400 so it’s going to be fine.

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/hig...-2017-2021.pdf

It has 80 km including the current construction to get done.
The current construction is not scheduled to be done till 2020. If Ford's PCs continue with the twinning, it would make sense that the entire section should be done by about 2030. That is 11 years. Ford has come out stating that he won't introduce new spending for just about everything and is currently cutting spending everywhere.

I suspect the end date will be closer to 2035 with how Ford has been. This assumes he doesn't get re elected. If he does, push it to 2040.

[Dengler Avenue]

60 years to get it done in the worst case scenario *facepalm*

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/hig...-2017-2021.pdf

It has 80 km including the current construction to get done.
The current construction is not scheduled to be done till 2020. If Ford's PCs continue with the twinning, it would make sense that the entire section should be done by about 2030. That is 11 years. Ford has come out stating that he won't introduce new spending for just about everything and is currently cutting spending everywhere.

I suspect the end date will be closer to 2035 with how Ford has been. This assumes he doesn't get re elected. If he does, push it to 2040.

How is the negotiating going with the First Nations along the route? I suspect that will be the bottleneck for the project. It was the reason that it took longer to complete the highway south of Parry Sound - the Wahta negotiations slowed construction progress, delaying the project.

Now, I suspect the PCs won't exactly push hard for the project, despite supporting it on paper. They don't suffer any political penalties as they might've if they had cancelled it, but they can point to the FN consultations to blame any delays on. A project that can't move forward doesn't have to be budgeted for, which makes the optics on the deficit look better (in the short-term).

[sonysnob]

I was talking with someone with a facility just off of the highway in Parry Sound last summer and he told me that the negotiations with the first nations were finished last year, and the construction would be able to continue. There are two large bright (obtrusive) advertising signs literally straddling the lanes of the highway through the former Whata Gap, and there is a lot of construction for a wind farm and associated power transmission line on both sides of the Key River. From what I understand, these items were reportedly part of the deal between the first nations and the province to secure the land for highway twinning

The gentleman I was speaking with in Parry Sound wasn't a government official or anything, so I could be off base, but given the work for the wind farm going on through the Highway 69 corridor, I can believe that the province has secured a corridor for twinning.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

60 years to get it done in the worst case scenario *facepalm*

Ernie Eves only revived the complete project in 2002. I guess if you're looking at 1991 at the start date, yeah, 60 years makes sense.

Heck, the province only officially committed to twinning to Parry Sound in 2000.

They've built ~130km of divided freeway through Canadian Shield since the late 1990s/early 2000s.

I can't think of any other highway that's received as much attention in that timespan. Maybe the 401 through Toronto, with Collector-Express expansions?
Highway 11 north of Huntsville?

I think swimmer_spe has the right idea: 2035-2040. Perhaps sooner if things go well politically.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I was talking with someone with a facility just off of the highway in Parry Sound last summer and he told me that the negotiations with the first nations were finished last year, and the construction would be able to continue. There are two large bright (obtrusive) advertising signs literally straddling the lanes of the highway through the former Whata Gap, and there is a lot of construction for a wind farm and associated power transmission line on both sides of the Key River. From what I understand, these items were reportedly part of the deal between the first nations and the province to secure the land for highway twinning

The gentleman I was speaking with in Parry Sound wasn't a government official or anything, so I could be off base, but given the work for the wind farm going on through the Highway 69 corridor, I can believe that the province has secured a corridor for twinning.

Thanks! That's good to know.

[Dengler Avenue]

Could this be another instance where completing projects demanded by FN’s is a pre-condition to twinning, much like Freedom Road is to Highway 17 west of Kenora?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by wave46

How is the negotiating going with the First Nations along the route? I suspect that will be the bottleneck for the project. It was the reason that it took longer to complete the highway south of Parry Sound - the Wahta negotiations slowed construction progress, delaying the project.

Now, I suspect the PCs won't exactly push hard for the project, despite supporting it on paper. They don't suffer any political penalties as they might've if they had cancelled it, but they can point to the FN consultations to blame any delays on. A project that can't move forward doesn't have to be budgeted for, which makes the optics on the deficit look better (in the short-term).

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I was talking with someone with a facility just off of the highway in Parry Sound last summer and he told me that the negotiations with the first nations were finished last year, and the construction would be able to continue. There are two large bright (obtrusive) advertising signs literally straddling the lanes of the highway through the former Whata Gap, and there is a lot of construction for a wind farm and associated power transmission line on both sides of the Key River. From what I understand, these items were reportedly part of the deal between the first nations and the province to secure the land for highway twinning

The gentleman I was speaking with in Parry Sound wasn't a government official or anything, so I could be off base, but given the work for the wind farm going on through the Highway 69 corridor, I can believe that the province has secured a corridor for twinning.

It can be a dine deal, but if there is no political will (and it doesn't seem to have any with this government) it will not get done. Sudbury is not a PC area. It makes sense to snub us. However, if Ford wants us to even think of him next election, he needs to show us we matter.

Lets be fair, all the PCs are about are cutting services and uploading the subways so that dougie can do what he wants.

[sonysnob]

I don't disagree that Sudbury may not be a priority for the PC's... but don't forget that that almost all of the section of Highway 69 that remains to be twinned runs through the Parry Sound-Muskoka riding, which currently has a PC MLA.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I don't disagree that Sudbury may not be a priority for the PC's... but don't forget that that almost all of the section of Highway 69 that remains to be twinned runs through the Parry Sound-Muskoka riding, which currently has a PC MLA.

True, but the (IMO) vast majority of the political benefit was delivered when the town of Parry Sound and to a lesser extent, the Nobel bypass was completed for that particular riding.

North of Nobel, there really isn't much until you get to Alban.

I think the PCs are playing it smart (Weird, I know). By confirming that they support the highway in principle, they don't alienate anybody. However, by stalling on actual implementation (see: line-by-line review), they can also save face on the budget file.

I don't know enough about the internal machinations of the MTO and what their lead time is on signing extension contracts, but I imagine there isn't much pressure from above right now.

[sonysnob]

One of the things that I've noticed while driving by (I actually drive Highway 69 fairly frequently) is that the CN Railway has yet to realign their tracks to the new diversion south of Highway 522 at Cranberry. A few years ago, an advanced contract was tendered in order to grade a new rail alignment bypassing an "S" curve on the train tracks immediately west of the Highway 69 overpass.

Construction to grade the new railway alignment has been finished since 2018, but CN has yet to lay any tracks or electrical systems as of yet in order to by-pass the current segment of their line. Knowing a bit about highway contracts, I'd say that the MTO would be hesitant to tender another contract for highway works until CN finishes their rail realignment, as the MTO could conceivably be on the hook financially for any delays the contractor encountered because CN had not yet cleared their right of way for construction of the new highway.


The grading is visible to the south of the existing rail in this satellite photo from google, but the tracks haven't actually been moved yet.

[Dengler Avenue]

Why wasn't a folded cloverleaf interchange feasible at Highway 522 then? To me, if MTO did that, it didn't even have to bother CN.

[sonysnob]

The railways are in charge in Canada. The MTO certainly could have built around the railway, I’m sure the railway was on board with the realignment.

[Dengler Avenue]

With few exceptions, MTO’s really taken up this “A4 Parclo or bust” mentality.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

One of the things that I've noticed while driving by (I actually drive Highway 69 fairly frequently) is that the CN Railway has yet to realign their tracks to the new diversion south of Highway 522 at Cranberry. A few years ago, an advanced contract was tendered in order to grade a new rail alignment bypassing an "S" curve on the train tracks immediately west of the Highway 69 overpass.

Construction to grade the new railway alignment has been finished since 2018, but CN has yet to lay any tracks or electrical systems as of yet in order to by-pass the current segment of their line. Knowing a bit about highway contracts, I'd say that the MTO would be hesitant to tender another contract for highway works until CN finishes their rail realignment, as the MTO could conceivably be on the hook financially for any delays the contractor encountered because CN had not yet cleared their right of way for construction of the new highway.


The grading is visible to the south of the existing rail in this satellite photo from google, but the tracks haven't actually been moved yet.

A friend of mine works for CN and runs that part. AFAIK they are ready to do it. It may be that they are waiting till they have to, as apposed to doing it now. Reality is, the rail bed is ready, so at the same time as the road construction, they could put in the tracks.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

A friend of mine works for CN and runs that part. AFAIK they are ready to do it. It may be that they are waiting till they have to, as apposed to doing it now. Reality is, the rail bed is ready, so at the same time as the road construction, they could put in the tracks.

Are the tracks in CN’s current alignment not at all reusable?

Edit: Sorry that was a dumb question. I forgot it’s just like replacing a bridge.

Ps: You sure have an interesting network of friends.

[sonysnob]

CN's track work is specialized, so they'll have to tender their own rail installation contract separate from the road work. They have to separate construction contracts like that in order to ensure that the right construction company gets the work. If you try to do too much in one contract an owner can loose control of specialty items because those items get subbed out to a subcontractor.

Because the old railway will be covered by the new highway, the MTO won't start any highway construction until CN relinquishes control of their property. The MTO could conceivably issue an advance contract outside of CN's property, but I think that would have too many logistical problems for it to make sense to parse out the work that way.