Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

This is a song by the Tragically Myopic. Who do you think pays for maintaining bus infrastructure through downtown Ottawa, keeping them free of snow and ice through the winter? Do you think it is cheaper than having extra passengers use a train that is being built with ample capacity for decades of ridership growth?

How many buses can you even replace with a Lint on a single track?

The city has to maintain the roads anyway, regardless of whether buses run on it. I supposed there is a marginal cost for extra maintenance, but I can't imagine that would be more then hundreds of millions in capex, plus the operating cost of the train.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

This is a song by the Tragically Myopic. Who do you think pays for maintaining bus infrastructure through downtown Ottawa, keeping them free of snow and ice through the winter?

.

There are lanes on streets and also sidewalks in Ottawa's CBD that would not be plowed in winter if STO buses and their passengers didn't use them?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am totally bewildered by this discussion. Some are missing the point.

While most from Ottawa will have a single transfer to reach downtown using the Confederation Line, what we are suggesting would add a second transfer if they are coming from Gatineau, otherwise the entire Rapibus route network will need to be abandoned and returned to direct service from every neighbourhood. I am sure that will not work with a Bayview bus terminal (too many different routes),

When it comes to sending some routes to Bayview and some to continue to downtown Ottawa, how do we chose which routes go where? Surely the routes that go to Bayview will be much less popular because it is not a major destination in itself and because of the present STO network, there is little Gatineau ridership going deep into Ottawa.

Then there is the issue of who pays for large numbers of Gatineau riders to use the Confederation Line ? As an Ottawa taxpayer, I will not be too pleased to be subsidizing Gatineau riders and filling our trains. Unifying our transit system seems to be the only way that this would be reasonable and I don't see that on the horizon.

It is laudible to want to remove buses from downtown Ottawa, however, we kid ourselves if we think that new unfilled road space will be filled by pedestrians and bikes. We are actually mostly making room for more cars and trucks. Perhaps, if we make transit too awkward, this may be a blessing.

Good post.

The whole issue of not wanting "the other guy" to have fewer transfers - even if it's just in theory or optics - smacks of the proverbial fish who's pissed off that he's not getting a bike while his best friend who is a human boy is getting one.

The contrast isn't as great between transit users on different systems of course, but the analogy still applies.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Seriously, this.

I do not understand the hostility so many in Ottawa, from city council to the NCC to the general public, have towards STO buses, or buses in general, in downtown Ottawa. That's what they are for!

I am sympathetic to the idea of not having downtown streets clogged up by too many buses.

You won't get any argument from me that the situation on Albert-Slater and Wellington-Rideau needs or needed to be changed.

But with a very significant reduction of bus traffic on the horizon, the still stringent opposition to buses (especially STO) appears to be a bit over the top.

The subtext to it is probably a bit of "me vs. the other guy" and related to the classic interprovincial tensions over people in Gatineau working in Ottawa.

E.g. "those people" shouldn't be working here anyway, so if they're inconvenienced in their commute it's not a big deal...

[Kitchissippi]

Facepalm. The point being there is a cost involved to buses using the street, how is that not similar from extra passengers using the LRT? The big difference is the the LRT is being specifically and purposefully built for transit users, so isn't more passengers using it a measure of success? What's the point of saying "we built this thing, let's avoid filling it up."

Seriously some of you are reacting to the idea of BRT to Bayview like Republicans to gun control. It's not a ploy to take away your buses, it's to provide another alternative.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

E.g. "those people" shouldn't be working here anyway, so if they're inconvenienced in their commute it's not a big deal...

Those same people would be pissed if the "those people" jobs got moved out of Jean Edmonds or Place de Ville or Esplanade Laurier and moved to Promenade du Portage or some office park in Gatineau.

Per the last census, over 45,000 people in Gatineau commute to work in another province. Setting aside maybe a tiny handful who fly in and out of northern Alberta or Baffin Island every couple of weeks, that's 45,000 people who are often also eating lunches in Ottawa cafeterias and restaurants, popping out to run an errand or two in an Ottawa retail establishment, etc., etc.

Ottawa, and its residents, have an economic self-interest in making it as easy as possible for them to get across the river, and, at the end of the day, stay on the Ottawa side of the river knowing that it'll be easy and convenient to get home again.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Those same people would be pissed if the "those people" jobs got moved out of Jean Edmonds or Place de Ville or Esplanade Laurier and moved to Promenade du Portage or some office park in Gatineau.

Per the last census, over 45,000 people in Gatineau commute to work in another province. Setting aside maybe a tiny handful who fly in and out of northern Alberta or Baffin Island every couple of weeks, that's 45,000 people who are often also eating lunches in Ottawa cafeterias and restaurants, popping out to run an errand or two in an Ottawa retail establishment, etc., etc.

Ottawa, and its residents, have an economic self-interest in making it as easy as possible for them to get across the river, and, at the end of the day, stay on the Ottawa side of the river knowing that it'll be easy and convenient to get home again.

Also, since the lion's share of those positions are governmental or para-governmental, their salaries aren't money "taken" or "stolen" from Ottawa. The salaries are paid for by people all over Canada (including in Quebec) who for the most part aren't close enough to this region in order to benefit from the salary and commercial windfall of the seat of government.

So yeah, for some people a bit of civic humility is probably in order.

PS jobs aren't "Ottawa jobs", they're "Canadian jobs".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Facepalm. The point being there is a cost involved to buses using the street, how is that not similar from extra passengers using the LRT? The big difference is the the LRT is being specifically and purposefully built for transit users, so isn't more passengers using it a measure of success? What's the point of saying "we built this thing, let's avoid filling it up."

Seriously some of you are reacting to the idea of BRT to Bayview like Republicans to gun control. It's not a ploy to take away your buses, it's to provide another alternative.

Ottawa is up to its eyeballs in LRT and BRT projects until at least the late 2020s.

Gatineau has no rapid transit at all in the booming western part of the city and people are screaming for relief from commuter chaos.

The PoW is not even close to being at the top of the list for either city and look at what they have on their plate above it.

If you have confidence that Ottawa and Gatineau can walk, chew gum, juggle, play the piano and knit a sweater all at the same time when it comes to transit development... go for it!

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ottawa is up to its eyeballs in LRT and BRT projects until at least the late 2020s.

Gatineau has no rapid transit at all in the booming western part of the city and people are screaming for relief from commuter chaos.

The PoW is not even close to being at the top of the list for either city and look at what they have on their plate above it.

If you have confidence that Ottawa and Gatineau can walk, chew gum, juggle, play the piano and knit a sweater all at the same time when it comes to transit development... go for it!

Au contraire. I actually want to end the charade of pretending the Trillium line is ever going to extend across the river. It's a costly fantasy that will accomplish very little if it is only extended to Taché. Putting the PoW permanently on the plans as a BRT bridge places it on a different plate to chew. It would set the ball rolling on decommissioning of the rails, removing the get-it-ready-in-12-months-if-someone-wants-to-use-it dagger dangling overhead, and schedules its renovation on its own sweet time.

Even Bayview wasn't designed for such an extension, the planned second platform for the Trillium Line can't be accessed if there was through track, the obvious intention is for people to walk around the end because the stairs, escalators and elevators are only on one side. There is, however a door out to a lower level plaza opposite the tracks begging for a separate mode that goes across the bridge in any shape or form Gatineau would want it to be in the future.

Like I said in a previous post, Gatineau's transit needs are different from Ottawa's and a proper rapid transit link across the bridge is best determined and controlled by STO, not OC Transpo.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The whole issue of not wanting "the other guy" to have fewer transfers

It isn't about not wanting the other guy to have fewer transfers. It is about questioning why transfers are worse for people in Gatineau than they are for people in Ottawa? It really all depends on the type of transfer.

• Transfers to a route that runs every hour is horrible
• Transfers to a route that runs every 30 min is bad
• Transfers to a route that runs every 15 min is inconvenient
• Transfers to a route that runs every 7 min is acceptable
• Transfers to a route that runs every 3-4 min is a non issue.

If even 50 Rabibuses (4% of STOs daily buses in Ottawa) were moved from downtown Ottawa to Bayview during the PM peak (assumed to be 2.5 hours long), they would have service every 3 minutes.

Granted to get that level of service, they would need to either make the bridge one way or widen it.

[lrt's friend]

First, there is a direct cost to Ottawa taxpayers for transferring all STO riders at Bayview. We will need to purchase, maintain and operate additional trains. Reducing the number of STO buses downtown saves nothing. We still need to maintain and plow the streets.

Second, rail is not the answer to all transit problems. Rail has to be effective in its routing to be beneficial. Many cities in the United States have implemented expensive LRT systems and the end result has been reduced ridership. Why? Because rail is inflexible. Rail has to be built where it is feasible to be built, often not on the optimal route for transit riders. Most people still need to reach the rail line by other means. If bus service continues to languish with poor service, the additional transfers are actually a disincentive for using transit.

So the Prince of Wales bridge is available. Unless we create a service that actually meets the needs of riders, we shouldn't do anything. Whether we are talking about LRT or buses on the POW bridge, making everybody transfer there is not what people want. It is not a desirable location for transferring and it is an added inconvenience.

Not everybody has been listening to me about the prospects about extending the Trillium Line to the airport and to the southern suburbs. The fact that we are implementing a two transfer system to reach downtown is highly undesirable for riders. The same applies to using the POW bridge for STO riders, whether for buses or trains. '

The virtues of trains are not absolute. The trains need to take people where they want to go with the minimum of hassles. If the resulting service is not convenient, people will not use it. Make people transfer too many times for a simple trip and we will see negative results.

I want to remind everybody that the Confederation Line is coming, yet local bus service is not going to be significantly improved. Most of the riders will continue to be dependent on local bus service. This is why I am not that optimistic about ridership gains.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Even Bayview wasn't designed for such an extension, the planned second platform for the Trillium Line can't be accessed if there was through track, the obvious intention is for people to walk around the end because the stairs, escalators and elevators are only on one side. There is, however a door out to a lower level plaza opposite the tracks begging for a separate mode that goes across the bridge in any shape or form Gatineau would want it to be in the future.

Then what would the reason be for building the second platform..?
In any case, the confederation line documents (page 10) state that the current design of Bayview Station can accommodate future double tracking of the Trillium Line.
Just because there wouldn't be a way to access it today, doesn't mean that it wasn't designed with that possibility in mind.

[Acajack]

The thing is that there is no "service problem" at the moment with respect to STO getting people across the river to and from Ottawa CBD at the moment, and there will be even less of one once STO moves its buses off the Wellington-Rideau routing post-LRT.

[Acajack]

Furthermore, it's not Gatineau's fault or problem if some people in Ottawa are apprehensive about how well OC Transpo's service will work for them post-LRT.

There aren't really any decisions that were made by OC Transpo regarding the Confederation Line that can be said to be "for" the STO or Gatineau. OC Transpo and Ottawa made their own decisions and STO/Gatineau basically adjusted themselves to those decisions.

The idea that "if the post-LRT transit universe sucks for us, then it should suck for those guys from across the river too" seems a bit childish to me.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

First, there is a direct cost to Ottawa taxpayers for transferring all STO riders at Bayview. We will need to purchase, maintain and operate additional trains. Reducing the number of STO buses downtown saves nothing. We still need to maintain and plow the streets.

Good grief. Nobody is proposing that all STO riders transfer at Bayview. Just an alternative for those who need to. People who want to go to Tunney's, St-Laurent, VIA station, Bayshore, Carleton, Algonquin, the airport, etc., anywhere but downtown. People who will take the O-Train no matter what, so they should be accounted for in the passenger volumes anyway whether they have to board at Pimisi, Lyon, Parliament or Rideau. No extra trains needed, less people on the downtown STO loop-de-doop. A simple, logical rapid transit-to-rapid transit system link that everyone seems to like dancing around while pondering what to do with a rotting bridge.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The thing is that there is no "service problem" at the moment with respect to STO getting people across the river to and from Ottawa CBD at the moment, and there will be even less of one once STO moves its buses off the Wellington-Rideau routing post-LRT.

No one is suggesting that this be built tomorrow. Common sense says the population of Gatineau will grow so what is fine today may not be fine tomorrow, so having a plan is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Acajack

The idea that "if the post-LRT transit universe sucks for us, then it should suck for those guys from across the river too" seems a bit childish to me.

No, it is more like it will be great for us and we would like to share it with you. Not only do you get a better experience but you will save money as well.

I guess if you would prefer to keep riding your smelly, bumpy, overcrowded buses winding around downtown Ottawa (falling into people's laps), be my guest.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Good grief. Nobody is proposing that all STO riders transfer at Bayview. Just an alternative for those who need to. People who want to go to Tunney's, St-Laurent, VIA station, Bayshore, Carleton, Algonquin, the airport, etc., anywhere but downtown. People who will take the O-Train no matter what, so they should be accounted for in the passenger volumes anyway whether they have to board at Pimisi, Lyon, Parliament or Rideau. No extra trains needed, less people on the downtown STO loop-de-doop. A simple, logical rapid transit-to-rapid transit system link that everyone seems to like dancing around while pondering what to do with a rotting bridge.

How can we justify spending a huge amount of money on the POW bridge for a small minority of STO riders heading south or west from Bayview? Let's face it, people going east of downtown will happily board a downtown bus if it were the first to arrive, which is likely since the bulk of riders presently are heading downtown and presumably will still have direct buses.

I am not sure what the benefit will be of splitting routes between downtown and relatively close by Bayview. The outcome will be degraded frequencies to both destinations. And the point of all of this is to get rid of more buses out of downtown? Why is this such a top priority?

It seems to me we are looking for solution for a problem that does not exist. Now, if we were actually to come up with a proposal that actually delivers better service for the majority, I am all in. But, any such solution will require a much better analysis of interprovincial needs and a much bigger investment.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

No one is suggesting that this be built tomorrow. Common sense says the population of Gatineau will grow so what is fine today may not be fine tomorrow, so having a plan is a good thing.



No, it is more like it will be great for us and we would like to share it with you. Not only do you get a better experience but you will save money as well.

I guess if you would prefer to keep riding your smelly, bumpy, overcrowded buses winding around downtown Ottawa (falling into people's laps), be my guest.

I am not sure what big benefit there is in having to unload a full bus and change platforms and board what is likely going to be a very crowded train for 2 or 3 stops. That sounds equally unappealing.

I am in the same boat with our permanent plan for the southeast part of the city. Take a bus for 80% of the trip, have to disembark from a likely crowded bus at Hurdman, go up to LRT platform and get on a crowded train and stand for a few stations, perhaps 5 to 10 minutes.

Remember, the same people who make buses smelly will also be on the trains.


We are not talking about nice spacious VIA rail trains that everybody gets a seat and can work away on their laptops or iphones. Let's get over this false utopia that will never exist.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Good post.

The whole issue of not wanting "the other guy" to have fewer transfers - even if it's just in theory or optics - smacks of the proverbial fish who's pissed off that he's not getting a bike while his best friend who is a human boy is getting one.

The contrast isn't as great between transit users on different systems of course, but the analogy still applies.

It's worse than that. All of this is based on some vague idea of "too many buses" that is not shared by anyone but some pro-bicycling ideologues.

Bus traffic is going down dramatically in the corridor, while STO users are getting shorter travel times and avoiding unnecessary transfers. This is a win for everyone except those who would readily turn every bus lane into bike lanes.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

How can we justify spending a huge amount of money on the POW bridge for a small minority of STO riders heading south or west from Bayview?

Because the end game is not that small minority, but an effort to move all STO buses there once the PoW is restored and Bayview gets the bus bays to accommodate all those STO transfers.

Read between the lines. Kitchissippi wants all STO buses gone from the core. Not just a "small minority". After all, there's no business case to rehabilitate the PoW bridge for a third of STO's cross-river traffic.