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  #421  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
I was shot 3 separate times walking around my neighborhood this afternoon.

We call that an average day in chicago.
whereas here in heavily gentrified brooklyn I sometimes go for days without being shot. that's called progress.
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  #422  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 12:39 PM
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regarding US corporate tax rates:

Actual U.S. Corporate Tax Rates Are in Line with Comparable Countries

Quote:
The average corporate tax rate on profits from new investments made in the U.S. is 24 percent; the average corporate rate on profits from new investments made by companies in other “Group of Seven” (G-7) industrialized, democratic countries, weighted by the size of their economies, is 21 percent. This measure of tax rates is useful when considering how corporate taxes affect companies’ decisions about where to make new investments.

The share of worldwide profits that U.S. multinational corporations pay in U.S. and foreign income taxes is about 28 percent; the average for companies headquartered in other G-7 countries, weighted by the size of their economies, is 29 percent. This measure of tax rates that a multinational might face on its income from all countries is useful for considering how corporate taxes might affect where multinationals choose to reside for tax purposes. (See chart.)
also see http://www.npr.org/2017/08/07/541797699/...-highest-corporate-tax-rate-in-the-world
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  #423  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 12:41 PM
mja mja is offline
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This thread is going to be a repository for all of the pent-up city vs. city angst that has been building up for years on this forum.
     
     
  #424  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
SV is SV. I won't deny you are wrong on Amazon have a large presence in the State, this a requirement as they are involved with tech.
Yes and this thread is specifically about Amazon.

And it's not just tech, Amazon Studios(and Netflix) are gobbling up space in LA at a rapid pace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloomberg
The amount of office space the entertainment industry occupies in Los Angeles County has climbed to the most this decade, with media tenants in 25.5 million square feet, up 2.99 million square feet from five years earlier, according to brokerage CBRE Group Inc. The space the streaming companies lease has evolved from the small offices of a few years ago to the giant production facilities typically associated with traditional Hollywood studios.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...-a-office-demand-as-streaming-flourishes

Quote:
Nestle
CKE Food Group
Toyota
Nissan

All above have put there HQs on the highway out of the state.
Yes that is unfortunate but Id rather have Snap, Tesla, Uber and Netflix.

Ya know. The future.

Quote:
California has lost 10,000 companies since 2008 which have all left the State.
There are 4.5 million businesses in California. 10,000 is breadcrumbs.

Quote:
Lastly, job growth numbers are misleading as you present them, It should be tied to population numbers
What's misleading is your claim that California has had 'meager' job growth. LOL on the contrary, for the past 5 years California has created the most jobs of any state at a rate faster than the national average.

Quote:
and also the types of jobs are not shown, lots of strawberry pickers in California which are bottom level jobs.
Not sure where you get your news from, but the Bay Area and LA is where the job growth has been concentrated and there arent many strawberry pickers here.

On the other hand, business friendly TX is the king of the minimum wage job.
https://www.bls.gov/regions/southwest/news-release/minimumwageworkers_texas.htm#Table1

Quote:
Again the weather is nice, but what else does Cali have to sell itself on?
Oh I dunno, the most dynamic economy? The most top notch universities of any state? the largest consumer market in the US? 2 of the most internationally reknowned cities on earth? etc.

Oh, and soon to be the world's 5th largest economy.
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  #425  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
Canadians get this just fine.

There are 2 different things.

1) Most of us neither assume Toronto (or Montreal or Vancouver) will get this, nor in many cases do we care.

What we object to is false arguments and non-facts being being brought forward.

Our Corporate taxes are lower, our personal taxes adjusted for benefits are the same or lower for most.

Our cities are by and large more vibrant than their American counterparts (NYC excluded) .

Yes, we know, we've actually traveled, LOL

If you want to slag Toronto's congestion or Vancouver's housing costs, fair game.

But stick to the facts.

****

2) .....Do you remember that HUGE controversy when Burger King's parent company (now Popeye's as well) shifted its nominal HQ to Canada? (that's Restaurant Brands International)

Right.....no one got voted out because of it; the stock price is fine, and shockingly, American's still eat @ Burger King.

LOL

Turns out memories are short lived.
I think there is an interesting discussion to be had on whether globalization and immigration / real estate safe harbor demand has in fact made Canada less competitive for say, this amazon relocation or for other types of economic diversification away from real estate and resources that currently dominate your economy.

20 years ago when Nortel and RIM were doing well, Americans and others could (and did) easily relocate to Canada due to similar housing costs and incomes. Today, incomes in the US (adjusted for PPP) are higher while housing is far cheaper. Now, it would be very difficult for most Americans or Europeans to relocate to Toronto, given that the average house there costs what, $1,000,000. Vancouver is even worse.

Young people starting IT careers and families and moving to Toronto have to compete for housing with wealthy east and south Asian families who have already made their money in various overseas businesses, and are moving to Canada because of its safe harbor properties. It's natural that inflation would flow from housing into other sectors as well.

If anything, American cities and companies should try to attract educated, 'old stock' Canadians to move south to escape high housing costs.
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  #426  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 2:41 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Since Philly's Schuylkill Yards has been posted every other page since the start of this thread, here's Chicago's prime site. The Old Post Office which is 2.5 million SF of loft industrial space with 250k SF floor plates. The building is already under construction and will easily be ready to fill their initial 500k SF requirement on TWO floors. The developers also control multiple parcels of adjacent vacant land which have already been zoned for an additional 5 million+ SF including a monster tower of up to 2000'. The building literally has a freeway running through it and has ramps right next to it that could possibly even be diverted directly into a new Parking facility. The site sites on top of a CTA subway stop and has three commuter rail stations withing two blocks that service all but a handful of Chicagos Metra lines.

Here are some renderings:


Phases One (center), Two (right), and Three (left):


Phase One (1000 feet, 92 floors):






Another older shot:



Skyscrapercenter.org
     
     
  #427  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 2:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osmo View Post
SV is SV. I won't deny you are wrong on Amazon have a large presence in the State, this a requirement as they are involved with tech. Aside from Tech SV firms getting freebies I can't think of any other large firms that are willingly moving to California in the capacity Amazon is proposing.

Nestle
CKE Food Group
Toyota
Nissan

All above have put there HQs on the highway out of the state. California has lost 10,000 companies since 2008 which have all left the State.

Lastly, job growth numbers are misleading as you present them, It should be tied to population numbers and also the types of jobs are not shown, lots of strawberry pickers in California which are bottom level jobs.

Again the weather is nice, but what else does Cali have to sell itself on?
10,000 companies left in the last decade? That's it? 10K is a rounding error when you take into account how many millions of companies are located in California.
     
     
  #428  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 3:23 PM
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What are the chances that Amazon will pull a bait and switch here?
     
     
  #429  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 3:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JMKeynes View Post
The high cost of living in NY doesn't dissuade companies from being based here. NYC and the NYC metro have WAY more F500 HQs than any other city. As people are aware, Aetna just moved its HQ to NY.
I'm glad there are no in your face New York boosters in this thread....
     
     
  #430  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 3:51 PM
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A large skyscraper or multiple towers would be efficient in Chicago versus a sprawling campus. 5 billion can go a long way, it's the land thats really expensive in some of the Alpha+ and Beta+ cities.

Just like Sears did, would be great for a new Chicago tallest named the Amazon Tower. And PS... screw the Willis name, its always known as the Sears.

Cost is one thing, but also integration with the global economy. An alpha city like Chicago offers it. Really any Beta - or + does as well, but for a big company, its very important. Plus O'hare is a mega airport. Can go anywhere really in the U.S. or abroad for the most part.
     
     
  #431  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:00 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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Originally Posted by montréaliste View Post
That is stretching it. The same clobberhead racist organizations have a footing in Canada and spew their hate speech and few ever get arrested or shut up by our governments or police. Hate speech is hate speech though, and should be defined as such, not a problem to be swept under the table. People who make light stuff of the millions who died in WW2 or the Civil War need to be confronted one way or another. Nevertheless, I can't imagine there are many more cases where Canadian courts or authorities have stifled free speech vis-à-vis their US counterparts.

Free speech in Canada is not.any more endangered than in the US. The usual stories are of groups or speakers denied access to college campus platforms. This happens in both countries.
Firstly, I don't agree, because in the long view of history minority speech tends to get hit with laws claiming to "protect social harmony". Look how many conservatives favor or have seriously proposed calling groups protesting police issues or confederate statues a "terrorist" or "hate" organization. The logic of certain bad people has always been that anyone with a strong nonconformist opinion who is part of an outgroup is a threat that must be eliminated.

In order to have a free country we need to take this cudgel away from anyone who wanted to use it, for right or wrong. This isn't my opinion, it's an opinion held by all of the US Supreme Court Justices.

Secondly, racism is rooted in prejudicial but seemingly polite attitudes, not edgy teens posting intentionally offensive stuff on the internet. Censorship only makes certain beliefs more transgressive and therefore attractive to the kind of disaffected person who is also most prone to radicalization.

Thirdly and more importantly in this case, it imposes a huge burden on tech companies when they are forced to police and filter content. The more subjective and arbitrary the rules, the harder they are to enforce. What ultimately happens is the service provider takes a more blunt approach to protect themselves from liability, and the end user and consumer suffers from poorer quality services.

For example YouTube has come under fire by advertisers and by governments for the content of its user uploaded videos, and in order to protect themselves a lot of videos have been taken down or effectively demonitized for arbitrary reasons. Video game reviews get taken down because they talk about guns, for example. It's very silly. Meanwhile there is still a lot of piracy and a lot of downright creepy things on YouTube, but the nail that sticks out gets the hammer as they say.

Being in a country like Canada means they'd be a persistent target of lawsuits and inquiries from anyone who ever was unhappy with something they saw on the internet, and skeezy IP law firms and patent trolls claiming infringement. It's not worth it.

Last edited by llamaorama; Sep 10, 2017 at 4:11 PM.
     
     
  #432  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:26 PM
montréaliste montréaliste is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
Firstly, I don't agree, because in the long view of history minority speech tends to get hit with laws claiming to "protect social harmony". Look how many conservatives favor or have seriously proposed calling groups protesting police issues or confederate statues a "terrorist" or "hate" organization. The logic of certain bad people has always been that anyone with a strong nonconformist opinion who is part of an outgroup is a threat that must be eliminated.

In order to have a free country we need to take this cudgel away from anyone who wanted to use it, for right or wrong. This isn't my opinion, it's an opinion held by all of the US Supreme Court Justices.

Secondly, racism is rooted in prejudicial but seemingly polite attitudes, not edgy teens posting intentionally offensive stuff on the internet. Censorship only makes certain beliefs more transgressive and therefore attractive to the kind of disaffected person who is also most prone to radicalization.

Thirdly and more importantly in this case, it imposes a huge burden on tech companies when they are forced to police and filter content. The more subjective and arbitrary the rules, the harder they are to enforce. What ultimately happens is the service provider takes a more blunt approach to protect themselves from liability, and the end user and consumer suffers from poorer quality services.

For example YouTube has come under fire by advertisers and by governments for the content of its user uploaded videos, and in order to protect themselves a lot of videos have been taken down or effectively demonitized for arbitrary reasons. Video game reviews get taken down because they talk about guns, for example. It's very silly. Meanwhile there is still a lot of piracy and a lot of downright creepy things on YouTube, but the nail that sticks out gets the hammer as they say.

Being in a country like Canada means they'd be a persistent target of lawsuits and inquiries from anyone who ever was unhappy with something they saw on the internet, and skeezy IP law firms and patent trolls claiming infringement. It's not worth it.
You just about proved to me there isn't really much difference between the US and Canada. But failing that, feel free to elaborate.
     
     
  #433  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
A large skyscraper or multiple towers would be efficient in Chicago versus a sprawling campus. 5 billion can go a long way, it's the land thats really expensive in some of the Alpha+ and Beta+ cities.

Just like Sears did, would be great for a new Chicago tallest named the Amazon Tower. And PS... screw the Willis name, its always known as the Sears.

Cost is one thing, but also integration with the global economy. An alpha city like Chicago offers it. Really any Beta - or + does as well, but for a big company, its very important. Plus O'hare is a mega airport. Can go anywhere really in the U.S. or abroad for the most part.
I expect that they'd want a cluster of midsize buildings over a supertall tower, but from an urban placemaking standpoint that's better anyway.

They could create something in, say, the South or West Loop similar to their urban campus in Seattle, with great transit connections, affordable urban housing and all of the amenities desired by younger professionals.
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  #434  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
This thread is going to be a repository for all of the pent-up city vs. city angst that has been building up for years on this forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Since Philly's Schuylkill Yards has been posted every other page since the start of this thread, here's Chicago's prime site. The Old Post Office which is 2.5 million SF of loft industrial space with 250k SF floor plates. The building is already under construction and will easily be ready to fill their initial 500k SF requirement on TWO floors. The developers also control multiple parcels of adjacent vacant land which have already been zoned for an additional 5 million+ SF including a monster tower of up to 2000'. The building literally has a freeway running through it and has ramps right next to it that could possibly even be diverted directly into a new Parking facility. The site sites on top of a CTA subway stop and has three commuter rail stations withing two blocks that service all but a handful of Chicagos Metra lines.
Granted these are very old and outdated plans at this point given the developer has thankfully changed. You wouldn't even need a 2000' tower to fulfill Amazon's space requirements with this location. The Old Post Office could be combined with a redeveloped annex plus the Union Station development. Then there's other nearby properties which could be redeveloped like the Holiday Inn, Northern Trust's massive buildings further down Canal, or even across the river on Wacker like the proposed KPF twin towers or that long-stalled tower north of the Enwave chiller. Given the way their Seattle campus is spread out, I don't think Amazon would be opposed to this.
     
     
  #435  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dimondpark View Post
Yes and this thread is specifically about Amazon.

And it's not just tech, Amazon Studios(and Netflix) are gobbling up space in LA at a rapid pace.



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...-a-office-demand-as-streaming-flourishes


Yes that is unfortunate but Id rather have Snap, Tesla, Uber and Netflix.

Ya know. The future.


There are 4.5 million businesses in California. 10,000 is breadcrumbs.


What's misleading is your claim that California has had 'meager' job growth. LOL on the contrary, for the past 5 years California has created the most jobs of any state at a rate faster than the national average.


Not sure where you get your news from, but the Bay Area and LA is where the job growth has been concentrated and there arent many strawberry pickers here.

On the other hand, business friendly TX is the king of the minimum wage job.
https://www.bls.gov/regions/southwest/news-release/minimumwageworkers_texas.htm#Table1


Oh I dunno, the most dynamic economy? The most top notch universities of any state? the largest consumer market in the US? 2 of the most internationally reknowned cities on earth? etc.

Oh, and soon to be the world's 5th largest economy.
Don't forget it also has the largest number of Fortune 500 company HQs of any state in the U.S.
     
     
  #436  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by coyotetrickster View Post
Don't forget it also has the largest number of Fortune 500 company HQs of any state in the U.S.
Of course it does. It has 1.5x the population of the next biggest state.
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  #437  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by denizen467 View Post
Not to beat a dead moose, and hopefully my last comment about Canada, but some here are missing the plot about what Amazon is and wants to be. This is not just relocating a hamburger headquarters or even a bank or a chipmaker. Amazon is arguably the most multifaceted and cutting edge company of the 21st century economy. From retailing, then to logistics, then to devices, then to hollywood style content, then to groceries; nobody knows what field next. They could literally buy a robotics company, or a cellular provider, or a movie chain, or a satellite launcher, or a pharmaceuticals company, or credit card company, or bank, next week (and they did just start a cargo airline). They cannot just tell huge fractions of those employees they have to move to Canada or lose their jobs. Also, they need legal services and, just as with Uber, they need to be deeply involved in government and policy as they literally help write 21st century laws about the airways for flying drones, or roadways for self driving trucks, or get digital protections for their content, and so on. For all that, they need to be in a US environment. I have a feeling they're not going to keep those functions in Seattle, because by moving eastwards, this new HQ2 will be closer to D.C. and other policy centers, and it should be handling a lot of that. (This is the big reason Boeing moved hq functions from Seattle to Chicago - to be within day-trip range of D.C.) For this reason I think Philadelphia has a very strong hand.

For almost any other conceivable huge company, Canada would be fantastic. I recognize all the cost and other advantages too. All I'm saying is, unless this is going to be an execution/operations facility or research farm, I think Amazon is far too unique and unpredictable to go there. There isn't really a knock against Canada in this, I stake a case of Labatt's on it.
I don't think we are missing the plot at all.

Amazon is a software company (that sells stuff online) and is trying to be highly vertically integrated. Since it invests significantly in automation and enterprise data system as it expands its vertical integration it is usually able to disrupt as it expands up and down the supply chain.

At the end of the day I think it will be more of a logistics and transpiration company than anything else. In the long run the stock market does not like vertically integrated company (like Amazon). What it has going for it just now is the fact its growing so fast that the market is willing to look the other way.

A good Canadian example is Canadian Pacific. It started life as a railway linking the pacific and Atlantic. It the discovered that to get tourists it needed a hotel chain. To provide catering for the train it needed a restaurant chain. To get people from Europe to North American it needed a fleet of steam ships. To communicate it needed a telegraph service. Mighty as well own a network of Radio stations. Since some people had money and was interested in flying it needed an airline. Since it did not go everywhere it needed a courier company and a trucking company. At some point it discovered oil and natural gas under some of its land and ended with an oil exploration company.

CP Railway still existing as a North American railway, but there are a host of spin-offs including Fairmont Hotels & Resorts, and a major international shipping company this is now part of Hapag-Lloyd.

Amazon is following it footsteps of Canadian Pacific, Standard Oil, GE and a host of others. At some point either the government will break it up to avoid a monopoly or the markets will break it up to "unlock hidden value in the conglomerate".

The city that gets this in 20 years will have the head-offices for 10-20 major multi-nationals when the breakup occurs. Given Amazon is in 44 buildings in the Seattle, I don't think they are looking for a single building. I am actually surprised they are looking for single city. I would have thought they would sprinkle the head offices for their divisions around a bit more.
     
     
  #438  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 5:54 PM
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Delaware is putting together a package to get this HQ. Before everyone laughs at Delaware, there is something going for our state. The Bezos family was from Delaware.
     
     
  #439  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by coyotetrickster View Post
Don't forget it also has the largest number of Fortune 500 company HQs of any state in the U.S.
New York State has the most F500 companies, thanks to the economic might of NYC. California is right behind.

https://www.bizjournals.com/newyork/news/2017/06/07/new-york-fortune-500-ranking.html

NYC sure has a lot of corporations for being expensive and 'hostile' to business.
     
     
  #440  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 6:05 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
I'm glad there are no in your face New York boosters in this thread....
How is that statement of fact "in your face"?
     
     
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