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  #401  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 2:06 AM
ChargerCarl ChargerCarl is offline
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They should just build it in Seattle...
     
     
  #402  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 2:07 AM
YSL YSL is offline
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Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Does Amazon care if it is a "world class" city by SSP standards? I think posters here are projecting their own biases onto Amazon's thinking. It seems to me that they are looking for a place with quality of life that is easy to recruit to, tax breaks, and a cheaper city than Seattle if possible.

If you ask a normal person whether they want to live on 100k in New York or a cheaper, pleasant city, most people will choose the cheaper city. I think that has to figure into their thinking. I would be shocked if this thing goes to New York. I think Chicago is the most likely choice.
"Normal people" don't matter.

As Diamondpark's data showed, very highly educated people have a very clear preference as far as cities go. They go to NYC, SF, Boston, cost of living be damned..

Are you suggesting that Amazon would get no response if they post $100k job listings in NYC? LOL. They would be absolutely flooded. We have an NYC office and when there are open positions, we are absolutely flooded with resumes from throughout the country, Europe, Canada. I would say there are far more highly skilled people actively looking for jobs in NYC than there are jobs available. Sure, your average Chick Fil A loving, mcmansion dwelling, suburban driving, mega church attending, American family with 3 kids has no interest in living in NYC or SF, and would far prefer to live in suburban Atlanta, but that really is of no relevance here.

Last edited by YSL; Sep 10, 2017 at 2:24 AM.
     
     
  #403  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 2:32 AM
ScreamShatter ScreamShatter is offline
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Originally Posted by YSL View Post
"Normal people" don't matter.

As Diamondpark's data showed, very highly educated people have a very clear preference as far as cities go. They go to NYC, SF, Boston, cost of living be damned..

Are you suggesting that Amazon would get no response if they post $100k job listings in NYC? LOL. They would be absolutely flooded. We have an NYC office and when there are open positions, we are absolutely flooded with resumes from throughout the country, Europe, Canada. I would say there are far more highly skilled people actively looking for jobs in NYC than there are jobs available. Sure, your average Chick Fil A loving, mcmansion dwelling, suburban driving, mega church attending, American family with 3 kids has no interest in living in NYC or SF, and would far prefer to live in suburban Atlanta, but that really is of no relevance here.
LOL....that data is absurd and probably extremely skewed.

Intelligent, college-educated people from top tier schools tend to go where opportunities are. But as we are seeing, lots of people go to NYC and San Fran for a few years and then move out. Right now, I'm seeing all my friends who moved to those cities after college leave in droves for more affordable cities with opportunities. And the ones that have stayed, have a much lower quality of life. At some point, living in a 500 sq ft apartment loses its luster.

The reality is that Millennials are getting older. And they are driving the boat in terms of the trend make into the cities. But lots of older Millennials are starting to buy houses and have families, and that's not easily doable in expensive cities like NYC, Boston, San Fran, and DC. So people are opting to migrate to cities like Austin, Denver, Charlotte, Atlanta, etc. Heck, in Philly, my entire block is made up of people who have recently left NYC to move to Philly for all the reasons I stated above.
     
     
  #404  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 2:39 AM
YSL YSL is offline
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Originally Posted by ScreamShatter View Post
LOL....that data is absurd and probably extremely skewed.
Skewed because you don't like it? Skewed in what way? You do know it's so easy to find that info, right? Either through Linkedin, alumni groups or simply using the graduating class survey which does do show the top locations for grads. That list roughly coincides with which cities have the most wealthy. So an educated guess will tell me it's dead on.


Quote:
Intelligent, college-educated people from top tier schools tend to go where opportunities are. But as we are seeing, lots of people go to NYC and San Fran for a few years and then move out.

Right now, I'm seeing all my friends who moved to those cities after college leave in droves for more affordable cities with opportunities. And the ones that have stayed, have a much lower quality of life. At some point, living in a 500 sq ft apartment loses its luster.
Yea, because your friends will be the last people to ever graduate from college. LOL. You do know there is another graduating class right behind your friends who are going to move to NYC and San Francisco, right?

And I highly doubt your friends are ivy league grads. Those people tend to stay in the elite cities.

Quote:
The reality is that Millennials are getting older. And they are driving the boat in terms of the trend make into the cities. But lots of older Millennials are starting to buy houses and have families, and that's not easily doable in expensive cities like NYC, Boston, San Fran, and DC. So people are opting to migrate to cities like Austin, Denver, Charlotte, Atlanta, etc. Heck, in Philly, my entire block is made up of people who have recently left NYC to move to Philly for all the reasons I stated above.
Once again, the world keeps moving. The circle of life doesn't end with your friends. And millennials. I'm sure employment is also something that will be of interest to Generation Z..

PS - Most millennials are broke, didn't go to college and live in the suburbs or places like Tampa. It's quite funny how 'millennials' is now interchangeable with highly educated nerds or creative industry yuppies living in expensive cities. Highly educated, highly compensated urban dwellers are a small percentage of millennials.

Last edited by YSL; Sep 10, 2017 at 2:49 AM.
     
     
  #405  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 3:03 AM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
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Originally Posted by a very long weekend View Post
The discussion about Toronto is really pointless, the town would be a great fit for Amazon, but Canadians don't seem to realize how controversial it would be, thus how totally unlikely.
Canadians get this just fine.

There are 2 different things.

1) Most of us neither assume Toronto (or Montreal or Vancouver) will get this, nor in many cases do we care.

What we object to is false arguments and non-facts being being brought forward.

Our Corporate taxes are lower, our personal taxes adjusted for benefits are the same or lower for most.

Our cities are by and large more vibrant than their American counterparts (NYC excluded) .

Yes, we know, we've actually traveled, LOL

If you want to slag Toronto's congestion or Vancouver's housing costs, fair game.

But stick to the facts.

****

2) .....Do you remember that HUGE controversy when Burger King's parent company (now Popeye's as well) shifted its nominal HQ to Canada? (that's Restaurant Brands International)

Right.....no one got voted out because of it; the stock price is fine, and shockingly, American's still eat @ Burger King.

LOL

Turns out memories are short lived.
     
     
  #406  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 3:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
Canadians get this just fine.

There are 2 different things.

1) Most of us neither assume Toronto (or Montreal or Vancouver) will get this, nor in many cases do we care.

What we object to is false arguments and non-facts being being brought forward.

Our Corporate taxes are lower, our personal taxes adjusted for benefits are the same or lower for most.

Our cities are by and large more vibrant than their American counterparts (NYC excluded) .

Yes, we know, we've actually traveled, LOL

If you want to slag Toronto's congestion or Vancouver's housing costs, fair game.

But stick to the facts.

****

2) .....Do you remember that HUGE controversy when Burger King's parent company (now Popeye's as well) shifted its nominal HQ to Canada? (that's Restaurant Brands International)

Right.....no one got voted out because of it; the stock price is fine, and shockingly, American's still eat @ Burger King.

LOL

Turns out memories are short lived.
Silly discussion. Why would Amazon chose to setup a second head office in the US when they can run their operations out of Canada.

For a company that is focused on international growth Canada is a better fit. Canadian cities are better connected globally, immigration is more flexible and it has a provide track record of open and free trade.

What would make more sense is run US operations out of Seattle and run international operations out of Vancouver or Toronto.
     
     
  #407  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 3:29 AM
matt777 matt777 is offline
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I don't think that many of you are reading the actual PDF RFP from Amazon, PLEASE READ THE RFP HERE: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything/test/images/usa/RFP_3._V516043504_.pdf

Key Needs FROM AMAZON:
In choosing the location for HQ2, Amazon has a preference for:
 Metropolitan areas with more than one million people
A stable and business-friendly environment
Urban or suburban locations with the potential to attract and retain strong technical talent
Communities that think big and creatively when considering locations and real estate options

2. A greenfield site of approximately 100 acres certified or pad ready, with utility infrastructure
in place. The sites do not have to be contiguous, but should be in proximity to each other to
foster a sense of place and be pedestrian-friendly.

(Where on earth are you going to find 100 acres in NYC???? Or Philly for that matter)

Capital Investment: The Project could be over $5 billion in capital investment over the initial 15-17
years of the Project. Please note the capital investment required to acquire and retrofit an existing
building is dependent upon the condition and nature of that building. As such, the following capital
investment estimates will vary depending upon site requirements and actual construction costs,
particularly with respect to an existing building.
Building Phase Estimated Capital Investment
Phase I Building (500,000-1,000,000 sf) $300,000,000-$600,000,000
Phase II Building (1,000,000-2,000,000 sf) $600,000,000-$1,260,000,000
Phase III Building (2,000,000-3,000,000 sf) $1,260,000,000-$1,985,000,000
(So, Amazon is looking for a complex that will cost them around $5 billion to buy around 100 acres of land and build 8 million square feet of multiple buildings, in a campus like setting. Remind me where in NYC this is possible?)

Capital and Operating Costs – A stable and business-friendly environment and tax structure will be high-priority considerations for the Project. Incentives offered by the state/province and local communities to offset initial capital outlay and ongoing operational costs will be significant factors in the decision-making process.
(No way can NYC or Chicago meet the business and tax friendly requirement. They are the antithesis of business and tax friendliness)

Logistics – Personnel travel and logistics needs, both from population centers to the Project site, as well as between company facilities, are critically important. As such, travel time to a major highway corridor and arterial roadway capacity potential are key factors. The highway corridors must provide direct access to significant population centers with eligible employment pools. Travel time to an international airport with daily direct flights to Seattle, New York, San Francisco/Bay Area, and Washington, D.C. is also an important consideration.
(Again, it seems these metros might not be in the running based off of this. Denver isn't on here, but its airport lags heavily in international connections compared to places like Chicago and Dallas.)

Time to Operations – The Project requires an expeditious timetable for the location decision and the commencement of construction. Given this, sites with the requisite access, utility infrastructure, and zoning are critical. Please outline the permitting process and estimated timetable to initiate Phase I of our operations.
(Just the planning stage of a project like this in NYC or Chicago, and probably Philly, would take ages. Then you've got construction which will be unionized and take another lifetime).

My opinions are in parentheses, but the rest is directly from Amazon. It's clear that they are not looking for an NYC type environment for many reasons, and there would be no way they could accomplish this for $5 billion in NYC.
     
     
  #408  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 3:42 AM
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Capital and Operating Costs – A stable and business-friendly environment and tax structure will be high-priority considerations for the Project. Incentives offered by the state/province and local communities to offset initial capital outlay and ongoing operational costs will be significant factors in the decision-making process.
Bleh, this is when cities should flip the bird and scream fuck you - incentive shopping, corporatism at its utter worst.
     
     
  #409  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:16 AM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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..

Last edited by the urban politician; Sep 10, 2017 at 1:16 PM.
     
     
  #410  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osmo View Post
California is taking a hit with population outflows, and it is one of the worst States to conduct business.
Er I hate to burst your bubble( not really) but these are just 3 Amazon news headlines in the Bay Area since March of this year:
Exclusive: Amazon seeks 200,000 square feet of office space in San Francisco

Amazon's big East Palo Alto lease means 1,300 new tech jobs - The Mercury News

Amazon R&D Unit Coming To Downtown San Jose - Office - Bisnow


Apparently they arent too concerned about conducting business here.

Quote:
I can't think of what universe a company would sign up to plop 50k workers in California and have to deal with much of the prohibitive red tape present in the State.
Agreed that there's too much red tape but Amazon has a huge and expanding rapidly in California( not just distribution but more technical and management) as we speak so yeah...

Quote:
It isn't enough anymore to have nice weather. Cali is not competitive in the USA like it used to be and the outflows and meagre job growth shows this.
Nope.

July 2012-July 2017 Job Growth:
California +1,997,100
Texas +1,405,100
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  #411  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ChargerCarl View Post
They should just build it in Seattle...
If they built it in Seattle, I'd prefer they build it in Tacoma.
     
     
  #412  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:36 AM
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Amazon probably already decided on a location, just want to the government there to bid to reduce cost. Just more corporate welfare.

Reading about the presence that Amazon already has is kind of scary. Offices and warehouses in almost every state and province already. Now a second HQ, 100 acres land, up to 6 million sq feet office space? Wow. Soon they will be more important than the goverment.
     
     
  #413  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 4:59 AM
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I also think Amazon has a favorite location or two already in mind. But they have to do their due diligence for their stock holders and make sure they get the best deal they can.
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  #414  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 5:11 AM
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I'm sorry to all of you hopefuls out there that want to be in play but its Chicago's to lose. Like I have said before there are only 5 cities in the USA that could pull this off, and I stand on my opinion that Canada is not in the mix due to the current political climate.


They meet all of the requirements.

This is just a formality now.



This is what its going to look like when they show the camaras the move except ex POTUS Obama will be talking last.

The RFP requirements from Amazon was written exclusively for Chicago.

Only one or two others can even come close
. Seriously.


This game is just how much tax deferment they will get and the negotiations going on right now. The only other city in the mix IMO is Philadelphia, or DC if Bezos really wants to run for the POTUS.

it was fun reading this tread though.

Game over, man Game over...

I quite frankly am not worried a bit about this...

I love the banter though...


Amazon said they would tell the world by early 2018 but I expect we will hear who the winner site selection is in a about month after mid October.


Whishing [sp] you Y'all' the best. You heard it first.


Concurringly [ I made up that word myself and am quite proud of that fact btw. ]



bnk.


http://www.builtinchicago.org/2017/07/11/amazon-doubling-chicago-office-200-new-hires

Last edited by bnk; Sep 10, 2017 at 5:34 AM.
     
     
  #415  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 5:22 AM
denizen467 denizen467 is offline
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^ bnk, can you tune it down a bit with the hyperbole. Your enthusiasm is welcome but let's take it one step at a time. Also, your footer links to nothing. Have a pleasant evening. Edit: And now, your footer still links to nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
I was shot 3 separate times walking around my neighborhood this afternoon.

We call that an average day in chicago.
I think we call that sarcasm in Chicago. Right, Steely, I assume? Edgewater, after all, we're not even talking Rogers Park. Three times in a century would be a lot.

Last edited by denizen467; Sep 10, 2017 at 5:54 AM.
     
     
  #416  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 5:53 AM
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Amazon already offers services in French for Canada. A Toronto HQ would neither increase or decrease this.
Not to beat a dead moose, and hopefully my last comment about Canada, but some here are missing the plot about what Amazon is and wants to be. This is not just relocating a hamburger headquarters or even a bank or a chipmaker. Amazon is arguably the most multifaceted and cutting edge company of the 21st century economy. From retailing, then to logistics, then to devices, then to hollywood style content, then to groceries; nobody knows what field next. They could literally buy a robotics company, or a cellular provider, or a movie chain, or a satellite launcher, or a pharmaceuticals company, or credit card company, or bank, next week (and they did just start a cargo airline). They cannot just tell huge fractions of those employees they have to move to Canada or lose their jobs. Also, they need legal services and, just as with Uber, they need to be deeply involved in government and policy as they literally help write 21st century laws about the airways for flying drones, or roadways for self driving trucks, or get digital protections for their content, and so on. For all that, they need to be in a US environment. I have a feeling they're not going to keep those functions in Seattle, because by moving eastwards, this new HQ2 will be closer to D.C. and other policy centers, and it should be handling a lot of that. (This is the big reason Boeing moved hq functions from Seattle to Chicago - to be within day-trip range of D.C.) For this reason I think Philadelphia has a very strong hand.

For almost any other conceivable huge company, Canada would be fantastic. I recognize all the cost and other advantages too. All I'm saying is, unless this is going to be an execution/operations facility or research farm, I think Amazon is far too unique and unpredictable to go there. There isn't really a knock against Canada in this, I stake a case of Labatt's on it.
     
     
  #417  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 5:59 AM
osmo osmo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimondpark View Post
Er I hate to burst your bubble( not really) but these are just 3 Amazon news headlines in the Bay Area since March of this year:
Exclusive: Amazon seeks 200,000 square feet of office space in San Francisco

Amazon's big East Palo Alto lease means 1,300 new tech jobs - The Mercury News

Amazon R&D Unit Coming To Downtown San Jose - Office - Bisnow


Apparently they arent too concerned about conducting business here.


Agreed that there's too much red tape but Amazon has a huge and expanding rapidly in California( not just distribution but more technical and management) as we speak so yeah...


Nope.

July 2012-July 2017 Job Growth:
California +1,997,100
Texas +1,405,100
SV is SV. I won't deny you are wrong on Amazon have a large presence in the State, this a requirement as they are involved with tech. Aside from Tech SV firms getting freebies I can't think of any other large firms that are willingly moving to California in the capacity Amazon is proposing.

Nestle
CKE Food Group
Toyota
Nissan

All above have put there HQs on the highway out of the state. California has lost 10,000 companies since 2008 which have all left the State.

Lastly, job growth numbers are misleading as you present them, It should be tied to population numbers and also the types of jobs are not shown, lots of strawberry pickers in California which are bottom level jobs.

Again the weather is nice, but what else does Cali have to sell itself on?
     
     
  #418  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 6:30 AM
38 Geary 38 Geary is online now
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Originally Posted by YSL View Post
Skewed because you don't like it? Skewed in what way? You do know it's so easy to find that info, right? Either through Linkedin, alumni groups or simply using the graduating class survey which does do show the top locations for grads. That list roughly coincides with which cities have the most wealthy. So an educated guess will tell me it's dead on.




Yea, because your friends will be the last people to ever graduate from college. LOL. You do know there is another graduating class right behind your friends who are going to move to NYC and San Francisco, right?

And I highly doubt your friends are ivy league grads. Those people tend to stay in the elite cities.



Once again, the world keeps moving. The circle of life doesn't end with your friends. And millennials. I'm sure employment is also something that will be of interest to Generation Z..

PS - Most millennials are broke, didn't go to college and live in the suburbs or places like Tampa. It's quite funny how 'millennials' is now interchangeable with highly educated nerds or creative industry yuppies living in expensive cities. Highly educated, highly compensated urban dwellers are a small percentage of millennials.
Exactly this. Behind each person that leaves NYC or the SF Bay Area for cheaper housing is another ten lined up to compete for that position.
     
     
  #419  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 6:35 AM
38 Geary 38 Geary is online now
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Originally Posted by YSL View Post
Skewed because you don't like it? Skewed in what way? You do know it's so easy to find that info, right? Either through Linkedin, alumni groups or simply using the graduating class survey which does do show the top locations for grads. That list roughly coincides with which cities have the most wealthy. So an educated guess will tell me it's dead on.




Yea, because your friends will be the last people to ever graduate from college. LOL. You do know there is another graduating class right behind your friends who are going to move to NYC and San Francisco, right?

And I highly doubt your friends are ivy league grads. Those people tend to stay in the elite cities.



Once again, the world keeps moving. The circle of life doesn't end with your friends. And millennials. I'm sure employment is also something that will be of interest to Generation Z..

PS - Most millennials are broke, didn't go to college and live in the suburbs or places like Tampa. It's quite funny how 'millennials' is now interchangeable with highly educated nerds or creative industry yuppies living in expensive cities. Highly educated, highly compensated urban dwellers are a small percentage of millennials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by osmo View Post
SV is SV. I won't deny you are wrong on Amazon have a large presence in the State, this a requirement as they are involved with tech. Aside from Tech SV firms getting freebies I can't think of any other large firms that are willingly moving to California in the capacity Amazon is proposing.

Nestle
CKE Food Group
Toyota
Nissan

All above have put there HQs on the highway out of the state. California has lost 10,000 companies since 2008 which have all left the State.

Lastly, job growth numbers are misleading as you present them, It should be tied to population numbers and also the types of jobs are not shown, lots of strawberry pickers in California which are bottom level jobs.

Again the weather is nice, but what else does Cali have to sell itself on?
Really? If you think weather is the only thing nice in California, you need to visit it. Or visit it again.
     
     
  #420  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2017, 10:00 AM
JMKeynes JMKeynes is offline
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Originally Posted by ScreamShatter View Post
and that's not easily doable in expensive cities like NYC, Boston, San Fran, and DC. So people are opting to migrate to cities like Austin, Denver, Charlotte, Atlanta, etc. Heck, in Philly, my entire block is made up of people who have recently left NYC to move to Philly for all the reasons I stated above.
The high cost of living in NY doesn't dissuade companies from being based here. NYC and the NYC metro have WAY more F500 HQs than any other city. As people are aware, Aetna just moved its HQ to NY.
     
     
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