High Speed Rail in Canada

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Alberta with private electricity is the cheapest nationally now

And Quebec is allowing a mostly private transit system to be built in Montreal.

A well regulated private utility has outcomes pretty inline with a well run public utility.

If a private company wants to make the mistakes in Canada, generating economic activity in the process, you would stop it?

I would hardly call REM a mostly private investment.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Alberta with private electricity is the cheapest nationally now

BC would be significantly cheaper for someone in my usage range, and is a crown corporation. Manitoba just a sliver more expensive than Alberta and also a crown corporation.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

And Quebec is allowing a mostly private transit system to be built in Montreal.

Which I remain wary of, but it's only 'mostly' private and will grow more public with time at least.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

A well regulated private utility has outcomes pretty inline with a well run public utility.

Then why bother with the added complexity of making it private?

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

If a private company wants to make the mistakes in Canada, generating economic activity in the process, you would stop it?

Because when a private company makes mistakes the people who pay are pretty well always the customers. When a government makes mistakes they're much more likely to get booted from office and the problems fixed. I like accountability.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Beedok

BC would be significantly cheaper for someone in my usage range, and is a crown corporation. Manitoba just a sliver more expensive than Alberta and also a crown corporation.

So it proves the point still.

Originally Posted by Beedok

Which I remain wary of, but it's only 'mostly' private and will grow more public with time at least.

How so? The government has the right to buy it back, it never reverts automatically like the Canada Line.

Originally Posted by Beedok

Then why bother with the added complexity of making it private?

So the public doesn't have to invest money up front, or be stuck with a stranded asset over time, or to ensure that politics doesn't interfere with the management by delaying maintenance to keep rates low, or ensure politics doesn't interfere to add a useless transit link to win a by-election.

Originally Posted by Beedok

Because when a private company makes mistakes the people who pay are pretty well always the customers. When a government makes mistakes they're much more likely to get booted from office and the problems fixed. I like accountability.

The people that pay are the investors. If a hyperloop failed (ran out of money, didn't make money), what concern is it of yours? The government already has procedures to deal with companies that fail, and railway/other ROW abandonment procedures).

Accountability is worth billions? People are already accountable. The management and board of directors get fired, the asset gets bought by a new company or recapitalized with a new board and management and moves on.

I am pretty sure the people of Newfoundland wish that Muskrat Falls was entirely a private proponent right now! Their old government was booted out, but now the people are stuck with this overly expensive thing.

[swimmer_spe]

For those who think we should have a Hyperloop installed instead of high speed rail on actual rails, please read this:
http://interestingengineering.com/biggest-challenges-stand-in-the-way-of-hyperloop/

These are some of the major challenges that one faces.

A hyperloop a few cm in diameter is much simpler than something a few meters in diameter.

A hyperloop a few meters long is much simpler and realistic than one that is even a few km long.

Canada should not wait for one of these to be built. There is other proven technologies for going fast on rails.

[ainvan]

Besides Morocco, even impoverished Asian countries are building HSR.

Canada, GDP per capita: $42,210

India, GDP per capita: $1,723
Laos, GDP per capita: $1,925
Vietnam, GDP per capita: $2,173
Indonesia, GDP per capita: $3,604
Thailand, GDP per capita: $5,899
Malaysia, GDP per capita: $9,360

HSR is not a luxury item anymore, it's part of modern infrastructure. Why Canada, why?




Nippon

[TownGuy]

Car ownership is extremely low in those countries compared to Canada, that's why.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

Car ownership is extremely low in those countries compared to Canada, that's why.

Population density is also much higher.

[ainvan]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

Car ownership is extremely low in those countries compared to Canada, that's why.

Uhm...

Car ownership in Malaysia third highest in the world: Nielsen

Malaysia boasts the third highest level of car ownership globally (93%) and the highest incidence of multiple car ownership globally – 54% of Malaysian households have more than one car.

Nielsen

Population density? Kuala Lumpur - Singapore corridor has approx. 20 million people with similar population density to Southern Ontario - Southern Quebec corridor.

I don't think HSR proponent in Canada dreams of HSR line from Halifax to Vancouver. Just several reasonable HSR lines (Windsor - Quebec City, Calgary - Edmonton, possibly Vancouver - Seattle) are good enough.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ainvan

Besides Morocco, even impoverished Asian countries are building HSR.

Canada, GDP per capita: $42,210

India, GDP per capita: $1,723
Laos, GDP per capita: $1,925
Vietnam, GDP per capita: $2,173
Indonesia, GDP per capita: $3,604
Thailand, GDP per capita: $5,899
Malaysia, GDP per capita: $9,360

HSR is not a luxury item anymore, it's part of modern infrastructure. Why Canada, why?

Hew Deli to the southern tip of India is about 2500km. Population of India is 1.3 Billion.

Population Density is the answer to why not Canada.

There is almost as many people within 200km of Toronto as there is in the rest of Canada.

[ainvan]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Hew Deli to the southern tip of India is about 2500km. Population of India is 1.3 Billion.

Population Density is the answer to why not Canada.

There is almost as many people within 200km of Toronto as there is in the rest of Canada.

Did you read my previous post? How do you explain Malaysia's HSR?

Some people always use the same excuses:

1) Car ownership.
2) Population density.
3) It's a luxury.
4) It's not North American (car) culture.

However, more and more countries are building HSR, and one by one, the excuses above will be debunked.

Several reasonable HSR lines can work in Canada. Where there is a will, there is a way.

Have you ever wondered why Canada is not the most innovative country? Sometimes, we're too timid to be the first one to break the barrier.

I know it's not related to HSR, but if you notice, almost all of the Top 15 innovative countries have HSR.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ainvan

Did you read my previous post? How do you explain Malaysia's HSR?

Some people always use the same excuses:

1) Car ownership.
2) Population density.
3) It's a luxury.
4) It's not North American (car) culture.

However, more and more countries are building HSR, and one by one, the excuses above will be debunked.

Several reasonable HSR lines can work in Canada. Where there is a will, there is a way.

Have you ever wondered why Canada is not the most innovative country? Sometimes, we're too timid to be the first one to break the barrier.

I know it's not related to HSR, but if you notice, almost all of the Top 15 innovative countries have HSR.

Ok,

A HSR connecting all major cities and all capitals throughout Canada, how much would that cost? How would we pay for that?

[Elmira Guy]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok,

A HSR connecting all major cities and all capitals throughout Canada, how much would that cost? How would we pay for that?

What HSR proponent ever proposed that?

What's with the all or nothing attitude?

[ainvan]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok,

A HSR connecting all major cities and all capitals throughout Canada, how much would that cost? How would we pay for that?

I guess you're just trolling? If you read my previous post, "Just several reasonable HSR lines (Windsor - Quebec City, Calgary - Edmonton, possibly Vancouver - Seattle) are good enough."

[speedog]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok,

A HSR connecting all major cities and all capitals throughout Canada, how much would that cost? How would we pay for that?

I'm curious and I actually do not know but is there a cross continent HSR in the USA?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Elmira Guy

What HSR proponent ever proposed that?

What's with the all or nothing attitude?

I am showing that in order for it to really serve the people and get everyone out of their cars, it needs to service the whole country.

Originally Posted by ainvan

I guess you're just trolling? If you read my previous post, "Just several reasonable HSR lines (Windsor - Quebec City, Calgary - Edmonton, possibly Vancouver - Seattle) are good enough."

I never troll. I do however say things that are just as stupid as others.

If the potential HSR routes, those are the most reasonable. However, the cost to build one of them is astronomical.

So, pick one. How much will it cost? How do you plan to pay for it?

Originally Posted by speedog

I'm curious and I actually do not know but is there a cross continent HSR in the USA?

USA does not have HSR. Acella is not even HSR.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am showing that in order for it to really serve the people and get everyone out of their cars, it needs to service the whole country.

Cars aren't even the most common form of long distance transportation. When most people want to travel between the "capitals of Canada" such as between Toronto and Winnipeg, Edmonton and QC, or Halifax and Regina, they fly. Some people do still drive long distances, yet air travel is still available and serves a large proportion of long distance travel even though it doesn't "get everyone out of their cars". If you had high-speed, energy efficient mass transportation such as trains carrying a large number of intercity trips in the country's densest and most populated region, it would do a lot to reduce pollution and improve mobility for a large number of people.

Not giving it the opportunity to accomplish this is like saying that we shouldn't support mass transit in large cities like Toronto and Montreal because such extensive service isn't feasible in small towns and cities and therefore can never get everyone in the country out of their cars. You do it where it works and you do something else where it doesn't work. Metro systems in large cities work and accomplish their purpose but don't reduce car usage where they aren't present just the like HSR in the St. Lawrence corridor would. This is why people are asking if you're trolling. The answers to the questions you're asking are simple and self evident enough that you shouldn't need anyone else to answer them.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

USA does not have HSR. Acella is not even HSR.

While there is no single universally accepted definition for HSR, I would be thrilled to have Acella service in the London-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor. If they could maintain 200km/h service with perhaps tilting trains at 50-60% of the cost involved in 250km/h+ service it would be a worthy compromise.

[kwoldtimer]

Are there any examples of long distance HSR operating in conditions anything like a Canadian winter? Not an expert, but that strikes me as a huge technical challenge, apart entirely from issues of economic viability.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Are there any examples of long distance HSR operating in conditions anything like a Canadian winter? Not an expert, but that strikes me as a huge technical challenge, apart entirely from issues of economic viability.

The HSR that is in Europe. Their winter is similar to Toronto's.

HSR anywhere else has similar conditions to Vancouver's winters.

[Acajack]

Russia has a couple of HSR lines. Not sure if this is a satisfactory example for you.

[Acajack]

China also has HSR up into northern parts of the country like Harbin, which is pretty darn cold in the winter.

I've never heard that harsh winter conditions were an automatic deal-breaker for HSR.