High Speed Rail in Canada

[ssiguy]

Contrary to popular belief my preferred route has nothing to do with a certain distain for KW. If HSR is to be truly fast it has to have as few stops as possible. Now that Guelph has been added to the stops, the route from KW to Toronto will be anything but high speed. The difference between HSR will be very limited and hardly any faster than a standard electrified system of 160km/hr.

[MalcolmTucker]

The existing alignment isn't too bad through the city, and the number of crossings need to remove aren't awful either.


As an example, just over 5:20 minutes to accelerate and decelerate from 300 kph, probably as low as you could convince people for dwell time is 1 minute. Over that time, the train that stops travels 18.5 kilometers, where the train that continues at speed travels about 31.7 kilometers, a real delay of only 158 seconds to make a stop. To add a market of 141k people.

And that is at 300 kph. The time penalty drops as the overall max speed drops.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The existing alignment isn't too bad through the city, and the number of crossings need to remove aren't awful either.

Expanding the line in Guelph is actually kind of a challenge because the existing track runs on an old and unique right of way that basically runs down the middle of a residential side street. IIRC, trains have to proceed through that area at 10mph. It reminds me a bit of a train set, and is kind of cute, but not very conducive to frequent or fast trains.

I'm not sure what they will do there. I suppose they could cut and cover that section, but it would have to surface rather quickly to the east before reaching the station and crossing the river. The other thing they could do is expropriate all the homes on Kent St., demolish them, close off the through streets and install sound-proof barriers. That would be cheaper, but it would be a PR nightmare.

[MalcolmTucker]

Only for one block is it that bad. The train will only be at 100 kph by then at max acceleration! The rest, the base case the study will likely recommend is sound walls.

Close the intersections, there is already an underpass at one end for traffic, build another at Edinburgh in the west.

[MolsonExport]

An HSR link from London to Pearson (and of course, beyond) would be a dream come true for me. I have had it up to here with Air Canadelay. Every fucking trip I take to/from Toronto via London's Airport is either delayed or just otherwise fucked up. You spend more time on the tarmac in Pearson as well as in London, than you spend in the air. A 20 minute flying time becomes 3-5 hours once the usual delays are factored in. Not getting a slot in the landing/runway queue at Pearson. waiting for a delayed flight/crew that is the product of another delayed flight/crew. Baggage didn't follow you on your connection. Whoops, our last 4 flights to London are cancelled due to yet another thunderstorm, so enjoy an unplanned stay in the wastelands of Pearson airport hotels.
It is fucking axiomatic. every fucking flight has a problem! Outward bound, the problem easily compounds when Toronto is not you final destination (it never is on my flying trips). Inward bound, what should be a 1 day system of flights very, very often turns into 1.5 days and some terrible unplanned overnight layover (almost useless as you are rebooked on a 545am flight which gives you maybe 2 hours to sleep one you get to your airport hotel at 2am).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

An HSR link from London to Pearson (and of course, beyond) would be a dream come true for me. I have had it up to here with Air Canadelay. Every fucking trip I take to/from Toronto via London's Airport is either delayed or just otherwise fucked up. You spend more time on the tarmac in Pearson as well as in London, than you spend in the air. A 20 minute flying time becomes 3-5 hours once the usual delays are factored in. Not getting a slot in the landing/runway queue at Pearson. waiting for a delayed flight/crew that is the product of another delayed flight/crew. Baggage didn't follow you on your connection. Whoops, our last 4 flights to London are cancelled due to yet another thunderstorm, so enjoy an unplanned stay in the wastelands of Pearson airport hotels.
It is fucking axiomatic. every fucking flight has a problem! Outward bound, the problem easily compounds when Toronto is not you final destination (it never is on my flying trips). Inward bound, what should be a 1 day system of flights very, very often turns into 1.5 days and some terrible unplanned overnight layover (almost useless as you are rebooked on a 545am flight which gives you maybe 2 hours to sleep one you get to your airport hotel at 2am).

Guess what? Air Canada would rather drop those flights too and use those slots for longer hauls to the US or Asia or Europe, that terminate at Pearson.

[MolsonExport]

evidence?

anyhow, this doesn't change the validity of my rant.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

An HSR link from London to Pearson (and of course, beyond) would be a dream come true for me. I have had it up to here with Air Canadelay. Every fucking trip I take to/from Toronto via London's Airport is either delayed or just otherwise fucked up. You spend more time on the tarmac in Pearson as well as in London, than you spend in the air. A 20 minute flying time becomes 3-5 hours once the usual delays are factored in. Not getting a slot in the landing/runway queue at Pearson. waiting for a delayed flight/crew that is the product of another delayed flight/crew. Baggage didn't follow you on your connection. Whoops, our last 4 flights to London are cancelled due to yet another thunderstorm, so enjoy an unplanned stay in the wastelands of Pearson airport hotels.
It is fucking axiomatic. every fucking flight has a problem! Outward bound, the problem easily compounds when Toronto is not you final destination (it never is on my flying trips). Inward bound, what should be a 1 day system of flights very, very often turns into 1.5 days and some terrible unplanned overnight layover (almost useless as you are rebooked on a 545am flight which gives you maybe 2 hours to sleep one you get to your airport hotel at 2am).

Oh, the perils of the hub and spoke system - we know them well here in Moncton.

I almost always have to make connections in Toronto (occasionally Montreal) to get to where I'm going. I would love to have a trans border direct flight from Moncton to Boston or New York, but the big wigs at Air Canada seem to believe that us peons in the colonies don't deserve any real service and make us fly hundreds of kms out of the way to get to where we want to go.

Halifax really isn't an option either. It's a 20 minute flight, but on a 19 seat puddle jumper that I refuse to take. I could drive to Halifax Stanfield, but that's over two hours from Moncton and the road conditions can be dodgy in northern NS for 5-6 months per year.

I did fly to Boston out of Halifax (return) for a conference once a few years back. I drove to Halifax Stanfield from Moncton. On the return trip back home from Logan my time was spent in this manner:
1) taxi ride to the airport - 30 minutes
2) arriving well before departure -2 hours
3) flight delay (fog in Halifax) - 2 hours
4) flying time to Halifax - 90 minutes
5) circling airport waiting for fog to clear - 30 minutes
6) deplaning, waiting for luggage, retrieving car - 45 minutes
7) drive back to Moncton - 2.5 hours

TOTAL - over 9.5 hours

YOU CAN DRIVE TO BOSTON FROM MONCTON IN NINE HOURS!!!!!

Never again..............

[ssiguy]

I am strongly against any stop at Guelph. The time difference is not so much the stop itself but rather how it effects the speed of the train. Guelph is only 15 km from Kitchener and then Guelph is only 50 km from Malton which is only 25 km from Union thru a populated urban area. In other words there will be no high speed between KW and Union. With such close spacing I don't think the trains will break 180km/hr at any point.

This of course begs the question, why bother? This wouldn't be any faster than just a standardized electrified GO train. The KW to Union section is going to cost a small fortune without any real speed increase over the planned KW GO Line electrification.

[milomilo]

They don't have to stop all the trains at all the stations.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I am strongly against any stop at Guelph. The time difference is not so much the stop itself but rather how it effects the speed of the train. Guelph is only 15 km from Kitchener and then Guelph is only 50 km from Malton which is only 25 km from Union thru a populated urban area. In other words there will be no high speed between KW and Union. With such close spacing I don't think the trains will break 180km/hr at any point.

This of course begs the question, why bother? This wouldn't be any faster than just a standardized electrified GO train. The KW to Union section is going to cost a small fortune with any real speed increase over the planned KW GO Line electrification.

From their respective outskirts, perhaps, but more like 27km core to core.

Somebody catch me up - is there an actual proposal for an HSR stop in Guelph? I thought that a new by-pass to the south of Guelph was the concept.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by milomilo

They don't have to stop all the trains at all the stations.

Exactly. On the Chinese HSR network there are plenty of stations along lines that not every train stops at - all that is needed are additional tracks at these stations to allow non-stopping trains to safely pass through the station at full speed.

For example, the Beijing-Shanghai HSR line (~1350km in length) has somewhere around 30 stations on it. The fastest trains running this line stop at only ONE intermediate station (Nanjing South) on the entire trip.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

Exactly. On the Chinese HSR network there are plenty of stations along lines that not every train stops at - all that is needed are additional tracks at these stations to allow non-stopping trains to safely pass through the station at full speed.

For example, the Beijing-Shanghai HSR line (~1350km in length) has somewhere around 30 stations on it. The fastest trains running this line stop at only ONE intermediate station (Nanjing South) on the entire trip.

Yup, and there are high speed lines with stations closer together than that. Stations every 50 km are quite common, even 25 km isn't unheard of.

[Beedok]

20+ km is a good enough spacing for HSR. On the Tokaido line Shinagawa station to Shin Yokahama is like 19km, Odawara and Atami are only about 20km apart, Atami and Mishima about 16km, etc.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

evidence?

anyhow, this doesn't change the validity of my rant.

Guess why plans for this include high speed rail?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/pearson-airport-development-1.3968790

Pearson is a busy airport. Slots are valuable. Why waste them on a 50-100 seater puddle jumper when they can put up a 777 with 300 passengers and open up a much more profitable international destination?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

but the big wigs at Air Canada seem to believe that us peons in the colonies don't deserve any real service

No, there's just not enough of a market to actually base a crew hub and aircraft in Moncton. You have any idea what a base would cost for Air Canada. They don't even hub in cities as large as Winnipeg or Edmonton. And you think they should do Moncton?

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

and make us fly hundreds of kms out of the way to get to where we want to go.

And yet Canadians don't understand why more competition is necessary. It should actually be US airlines competing for your business, by flying you to their hubs.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Halifax really isn't an option either. It's a 20 minute flight, but on a 19 seat puddle jumper that I refuse to take.

So you say you want service and refuse anything but the Cadillac? How exactly do you expect airlines to make a profit serving Moncton?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The time difference is not so much the stop itself but rather how it effects the speed of the train.

Do the kinematic maths. It's less than 3 minutes to add a stop. If we're decelerating at 1 m/s, it's 56s to full stop. And then 56s back up to full speed. Toss in one minute wait at the station. And of course, the train has actually covered several km as well. Those 3 minutes add a ton to the catchment area. So despite what you say, whoever actually plans this is dropping Guelph.

[ainvan]

A Hyperloop from Toronto to Montreal would create North America's 4th Largest Metro Area

[1overcosc]

^ Why have such an indirect route from Toronto to Ottawa? The only way that would make sense is if they planned a stop in Kingston but that's not labelled.

[ssiguy]

Even if Hyperloop proved itself and systems were being built all over the planet, it would never see the light of day unless Bombardier starts building them. It's a sad fact but fact none the less, no HSR will get built in Canada if not done by Bombardier. No doubt they would go thru the public relations exercise of putting thee bid out to tender but we all know it would go to Bombardier