Burnaby Updates

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

No major retail expansions planned but like was mentioned before the Sears re-development if it happens any time soon will be massive.

There's always the ability to land a 4th metrotower office building there but given the beating they took on 3 I wouldn't expect it any time soon.



I wouldn't be upset to see a 1/4 residential 3/4 employment mix here. Some housing next to BCIT would be very successful and make for a more vibrant 24 hour development.

My reason is that this should remain part of the commercial zone of that area. Residential I would personally allow on the south side of BCIT. But it would seem that with the natives on board they will get their way in which case there will be enough residential to create a community. I expect some high density there if that is the case.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

On the flip side leasing office space must be cheaper in metrotown than it would be in Downtown, but then again by that logic why not just go to Brentwood or New West?

That's the problem is that there really isn't. Metrotower III cost more or less the same amount to build as the latest AAA buildings downtown, so the rents were quite similar to downtown. There needs to be a pretty compelling reason for a firm to pay similar rent and locate in Metrotown over downtown.

Originally Posted by cornholio

My reason is that this should remain part of the commercial zone of that area. Residential I would personally allow on the south side of BCIT. But it would seem that with the natives on board they will get their way in which case there will be enough residential to create a community. I expect some high density there if that is the case.

Fair enough, I still would like to see a bit of res to round out the area but as long as it's majority commercial/institutional and not the other way around I'm not too fussed.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

That's the problem is that there really isn't. Metrotower III cost more or less the same amount to build as the latest AAA buildings downtown, so the rents were quite similar to downtown. There needs to be a pretty compelling reason for a firm to pay similar rent and locate in Metrotown over downtown.

.....

But what it costs to build a building shouldn't really be a primary determining factor in leasing costs (or conversely property tax rates), since buildings cost more or less the same to build wherever you build them with the variance being the cost of the land they're being built on (especially in Vancouver or the GVA).
And I'd find it really hard to believe that the same area of land in a pocket of downtown say between Robson and Pender and Burrard and Cambie would cost the same as a similar area of land at a comparable location in Metrotown or even Brentwood.

Construction materials for buildings cost the same wherever you're building them as does the labor to do so - which is obviously unionized and bid-based.
There may be a variance on the fees charged by the architect and consultants but once again a James Cheng project in downtown is going to charge the same fees as a similar sized project in Brentwood primarily because Architects and the consultants fees tend to be a percentage of the total building cost and not some arbitrary figure they come up with and not where the building is located. A higher premium may be charged on the level or type of design (like a high-end design building like the Station Square #5 for example may have a justification to charge higher than similar bland buildings in downtown for this very reason)

Most businesses want to be downtown because it's in the center of everything (in the commercial if not the geographical sense) -that's where the customers are; that's where the business contacts and colleagues are; and that's where new business can easily be accessed - and as a result building owners and landlords can use that as a basis to charge higher leasing fees. Same or similar logic as would be the case for housing rents.

If I'm a business owner, I may not want to locate my premises in New West for example, because most of my 'business' and my market are either more located downtown or more accessible from there. Obviously depending on the type of business one is in.
At least that's the way it would make sense to me.
But on the flip side if it doesn't matter (for example because most of my business is executed online and location isn't a driving factor) then why wouldn't I opt for a "cheaper" (but slightly out of the way) location to lease and rent?

[SpongeG]

I can't remember what they are calling it but they are starting construction on a park that will run along side willingdon avenue from brentwood to hastings, those little lots have always seemed so useless a nice walking path through a little park will be nice

[s211]

Originally Posted by officedweller

... and was then off-loaded to GVRD (Metro Vancouver).

For what was barely equivalent to costs-in, based on what I was told.

[sburnaby33]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I can't remember what they are calling it but they are starting construction on a park that will run along side willingdon avenue from brentwood to hastings, those little lots have always seemed so useless a nice walking path through a little park will be nice

It will be called the Willingdon Greenway. I live in the area and have received notice that construction will start sometime in late April. The initial proposal was the add HOV lanes to Willingdon Avenue and make it into a 6 lane roadway. Residents protested because it would make the road, in essence, into a freeway. The plan changed to a better proposal, a greenway. There will also be two dedicated left turn lanes from Willingdon onto Parker, which will help with traffic flow on the Avenue.

There will also be two small parks along the way. They will be located on the southeast side of Parker St. and the southeast corner of Charles St. Good places to take a rest before going up to the Heights. As well, pedestrian crosswalks will be added on Kitchener, William, and Union Streets. Looking forward to taking advantage of the Greenway next year. I will feel safer using this pathway to get to Hastings and Brentwood.

[SpongeG]

sounds good. Was always weird that that side of the street had those small lots. Probably a leftover from when they must have widened willingdon?

[officedweller]

They would have been acquired over time for future widening of Willingdon, but after protests, backtracked.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by officedweller

They would have been acquired over time for future widening of Willingdon, but after protests, backtracked.

Which is incredibly unfortunate. Just poor governance on the cities part. The HOV bus lanes should have been completed to Hastings. They acquired enough lane to add the HOV bus lanes, add a planted center median, add bike lanes, and add extra wide sidewalks with wide planted buffers. Now they will have none of this. Just a thin park along a soon to be congested arterial route.

[towerseeker101]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Which is incredibly unfortunate. Just poor governance on the cities part. The HOV bus lanes should have been completed to Hastings. They acquired enough lane to add the HOV bus lanes, add a planted center median, add bike lanes, and add extra wide sidewalks with wide planted buffers. Now they will have none of this. Just a thin park along a soon to be congested arterial route.

Those darn NIMBYs at work.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by cornholio

The HOV bus lanes should have been completed to Hastings. . . . Just a thin park along a soon to be congested arterial route.

I drive that section of Willingdon almost daily. I am happy with the plan.

I have lived in the area for most of the past decade and a half. I don't recall any protests. I wrote a letter many years ago saying that the HOV lanes were a bad idea, but it was on my own initiative. I am not aware of anyone else doing the same.

Extending the HOV lanes is completely unnecessary. Widening the street would not help congestion one bit because there is nowhere for the traffic to go: back-ups on Willingdon are honestly not that bad, but when they do happen they are because of worse traffic at Hastings and Lougheed. The one thing that causes congestion on the route itself is the lack of a left turn lane at Parker, but that will be remedied. Never mind that as more people in the neighbourhood walk and bike, the new crossing lights will stop traffic more often anyway. (And thank goodness: it's a horrible street to cross as it is, and there has been a significant increase in pedestrians weaving through traffic because of it.)

A decade ago, Willingdon at Lougheed was almost always free-flowing. Now it's awful. It will spill over onto Willingdon, Halifax and Dawson. It's already causing massive back-ups on Still Creek, which was only connected through a couple of years ago. I don't expect it to ever get better: that's how big cities work. People will always clog the streets until some of them can't bear it any longer and seek alternatives. Building more roads will only induce more traffic.

The only way to avoid big-city traffic is to simply drive less. That's what the Skytrain and commercial development are achieving: more walking (and, with the greenway, more biking), less driving. I think the development induced by Skytrain may have a bigger mobility impact than the train itself. On foot, congestion becomes an asset. If I'm walking by Solo, I would rather have a block of stopped cars next to me than a block of cars whizzing past.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Geof

I drive that section of Willingdon almost daily. I am happy with the plan.

I have lived in the area for most of the past decade and a half. I don't recall any protests. I wrote a letter many years ago saying that the HOV lanes were a bad idea, but it was on my own initiative. I am not aware of anyone else doing the same.

Extending the HOV lanes is completely unnecessary. Widening the street would not help congestion one bit because there is nowhere for the traffic to go: back-ups on Willingdon are honestly not that bad, but when they do happen they are because of worse traffic at Hastings and Lougheed. The one thing that causes congestion on the route itself is the lack of a left turn lane at Parker, but that will be remedied. Never mind that as more people in the neighbourhood walk and bike, the new crossing lights will stop traffic more often anyway. (And thank goodness: it's a horrible street to cross as it is, and there has been a significant increase in pedestrians weaving through traffic because of it.)

A decade ago, Willingdon at Lougheed was almost always free-flowing. Now it's awful. It will spill over onto Willingdon, Halifax and Dawson. It's already causing massive back-ups on Still Creek, which was only connected through a couple of years ago. I don't expect it to ever get better: that's how big cities work. People will always clog the streets until some of them can't bear it any longer and seek alternatives. Building more roads will only induce more traffic.

The only way to avoid big-city traffic is to simply drive less. That's what the Skytrain and commercial development are achieving: more walking (and, with the greenway, more biking), less driving. I think the development induced by Skytrain may have a bigger mobility impact than the train itself. On foot, congestion becomes an asset. If I'm walking by Solo, I would rather have a block of stopped cars next to me than a block of cars whizzing past.

Its nice to force your life on to others but people have various sitautions that call for various commute options. Real people take the buses that will now sit in rapidly worsening congestion.

Regardless the lanes were to be Bus lanes (like along other stretches of Willingdon) that would handle buses and rapid buses from downtown Vancouver along Hastings to Willingdon and up to Brentwood past BCIT and on to Metrotown eventually. It was not for cars but rather for buses to get them past the congestion that will only get exponentially worse from here on out, and it will get much worse very very quick. If you think things got worse in the last 10 years, it will get exponentially worse in the next 10.

Road expansion moves more traffic much like a larger pipe moves more water. Bandwidth.
To not continue the Bus lanes is a horrible mistake that the regions residents will pay for. I am just happy I don't have to actually live here and can get out as things gets worse due to a lack of infrastructure development (like this). After these bus lanes all that would have been left was a short stretch up the hill from BCIT to Kingsway.

[sburnaby33]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Its nice to force your life on to others but people have various sitautions that call for various commute options. Real people take the buses that will now sit in rapidly worsening congestion.

Regardless the lanes were to be Bus lanes (like along other stretches of Willingdon) that would handle buses and rapid buses from downtown Vancouver along Hastings to Willingdon and up to Brentwood past BCIT and on to Metrotown eventually. It was not for cars but rather for buses to get them past the congestion that will only get exponentially worse from here on out, and it will get much worse very very quick. If you think things got worse in the last 10 years, it will get exponentially worse in the next 10.

Road expansion moves more traffic much like a larger pipe moves more water. Bandwidth.
To not continue the Bus lanes is a horrible mistake that the regions residents will pay for. I am just happy I don't have to actually live here and can get out as things gets worse due to a lack of infrastructure development (like this). After these bus lanes all that would have been left was a short stretch up the hill from BCIT to Kingsway.

Aside from Parker/Willingdon and Lougheed/Willingdon traffic on the route is not that bad. I drive on it every day going to and from work. The real problem is getting onto the freeway after work and left turns onto Canada Way going to work. I usually leave early to avoid the former and take the Gilmore Diverson for the latter.

The left turn lane on Parker was necessary and will speed up traffic. I live in that area and wrote to Calendino voicing my displeasure for the plan. In the grand scheme of things it would not do much because there will still be congestion at the usual points. Maybe would speed things about a couple of minutes. It is a dangerous route to walk near and I usually take the gravel path on the empty lots to Hastings. Six lanes would not make it safer and would ruin the community feel in the area.

[Vin]

Totally agree that we need more bus lanes in the region. With good BRT systems, it is not impossible to reach various destinations within 30minutes for most places in the Lower Mainland. Willingdon should have dedicated bus lanes if they are going to make the Hastings-Brentwood-BCIT-Metrotown connectivity work. When more people take the buses, less cars will be on the roads, hence less congestion. Greenways are nice, but they should be put in place together with traffic-reduction strategies like having bus lanes.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

But what it costs to build a building shouldn't really be a primary determining factor in leasing costs (or conversely property tax rates), since buildings cost more or less the same to build wherever you build them with the variance being the cost of the land they're being built on (especially in Vancouver or the GVA).
And I'd find it really hard to believe that the same area of land in a pocket of downtown say between Robson and Pender and Burrard and Cambie would cost the same as a similar area of land at a comparable location in Metrotown or even Brentwood.

Leasing fees are determined differently for operating assets or a development project.

Developments achieve their rates by backsolving into a lease rate through building costs and hitting a prescribed IRR. Their lease rates are generally not linked to the competing buildings which are aging, though of course they generally can't be too out of touch.

Existing building leasing is based more on competing stock as the competition exists in it's physical form already and is easily comparable.

This is why it is much harder to develop new AAA office in the burbs, since the existing office space is usually much cheaper than downtown because it is more demand/supply driven while development office space does not adhere to traditional S/D models as closely.

[Aroundtheworld]

Some photos I took around Metrotown today:

Station Square









Metrotown Station

[vanman]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

Will be nice when the entire stretch of Kingsway through Metrotown is built to this standard.

[Prometheus]

It looks like 7 more floors to go for tower two at Station Square.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

It looks like 7 more floors to go for tower two at Station Square.

How many for tower 3

[sburnaby33]

I dont know if this development has been posted before, but IMANI will be constructing a tower at 2152 Douglas Rd. where Kitchen Kraft is I beleive. Here is the link:

http://keymarketing.com/projects/dou...wer-brentwood/

As well, signage is up at another IMANI development. Construction will start early next year on its property at Madison and Dawson. The area could see upwards of 15 buildings being constructed at once. The pace of construction at Brentwood is astounding. It is practically the centre of development in the Lower Mainlaind.