Chinese Investors Driving Up Metro Housing Prices

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by Vin

Why keep blaming the foreigners when we keep refusing to look in the mirror?

Because it's an easy scapegoat

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

I'm also extremely worried, the entire south coast of BC be it the lower mainland or Victoria is being seriously strained.

Hell, even 2bdrm crappy wooden town homes are selling for near 500k in Surrey. Some are already being flipped. We have had countless residents bring attention to the number of tour buses that are frequenting various neighborhoods (mostly in Guildford, Fleetwood and Fraser Heights). Homes IN SURREY are pushing the 1 mil mark. I know the common rhetoric is that we can build our way out of this, but that's simply untrue when you have countless dwellings that are sitting empty. Densification alone isn't the answer.

We've been hoping for a "market correction" the past decade. This is a beautiful inhabitable place to park your cash. We have an infinite number of affluent foreign investors and the Lower Mainland is the most desirable place to live in the Western Hemisphere.

For all intents and purposes...Millennials that do not possess property (or will not inherit it) should just get out of here while they can. This is per the trend of "21st Century Colonization"; we are being priced out and forced to migrate. What complicates matters is that our economy depends off this influx of capital...

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Hell, even 2bdrm crappy wooden town homes are selling for near 500k in Surrey. Some are already being flipped. We have had countless residents bring attention to the number of tour buses that are frequenting various neighborhoods (mostly in Guildford, Fleetwood and Fraser Heights). Homes IN SURREY are pushing the 1 mil mark. I know the common rhetoric is that we can build our way out of this, but that's simply untrue when you have countless dwellings that are sitting empty. Densification alone isn't the answer.

We've been hoping for a "market correction" the past decade. This is a beautiful inhabitable place to park your cash. We have an infinite number of affluent foreign investors and the Lower Mainland is the most desirable place to live in the Western Hemisphere.

For all intents and purposes...Millennials that do not possess property (or will not inherit it) should just get out of here while they can. This is per the trend of "21st Century Colonization"; we are being priced out and forced to migrate. What complicates matters is that our economy depends off this influx of capital...

I'm not going anywhere until i'm beyond forced to. Theres nowhere else in Canada I deem livable.

But I know others will be forced to leave. I love Metro Vancouver and I am beyond angry with what is happening to it.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Vin

Why keep blaming the foreigners when we keep refusing to look in the mirror?

Remember the time when housing was affordable, before our greedy government gave the "most favoured nation" status to China? Who elected these bozos? Please look in the mirror.

I voted, but didn't vote for the current party in power. It really doesn't matter who we elect though; we are boned either way. The past 20-30 years have worked against us and we are intertwined in something too big and complicated to fix. Millennials have the ability to at least influence the polls, but many of them simply do not care about politics (even those reaching their mid 30's).

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

I'm not going anywhere until i'm beyond forced to. Theres nowhere else in Canada I deem livable.

But I know others will be forced to leave. I love Metro Vancouver and I am beyond angry with what is happening to it.

Most of my friends have fled over the past few years. It's a sinking ship...I'll be surely making the jump this fall.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Hell, even 2bdrm crappy wooden town homes are selling for near 500k in Surrey. Some are already being flipped. We have had countless residents bring attention to the number of tour buses that are frequenting various neighborhoods (mostly in Guildford, Fleetwood and Fraser Heights). Homes IN SURREY are pushing the 1 mil mark. I know the common rhetoric is that we can build our way out of this, but that's simply untrue when you have countless dwellings that are sitting empty. Densification alone isn't the answer.

We've been hoping for a "market correction" the past decade. This is a beautiful inhabitable place to park your cash. We have an infinite number of affluent foreign investors and the Lower Mainland is the most desirable place to live in the Western Hemisphere.

For all intents and purposes...Millennials that do not possess property (or will not inherit it) should just get out of here while they can. This is per the trend of "21st Century Colonization"; we are being priced out and forced to migrate. What complicates matters is that our economy depends off this influx of capital...

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

I'm not going anywhere until i'm beyond forced to. Theres nowhere else in Canada I deem livable.

But I know others will be forced to leave. I love Metro Vancouver and I am beyond angry with what is happening to it.

This will be interpreted as a laughable trofirhen response by many, but think: if the current trends continue, NOBODY BUT THE VERY WEALTHY will be able to live in Vancouver.
So ... try doing as the French do... Take it to the streets. I know it's very "un-Canadian," but congregate, make noise, riot, demonstrate, sit-in, strike, ... until the f*****ng governement does something - like change the laws to something in the style of Australia. Either that, or put an apple in your mouth, and roast yourself to death, and think of your kids while you're at it.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Vin

Why keep blaming the foreigners when we keep refusing to look in the mirror?

Remember the time when housing was affordable, before our greedy government gave the "most favoured nation" status to China? Who elected these bozos? Please look in the mirror.

Everything you say is true but the problem begins and ends with allowing those with foreign incomes to buy up real estate. Choke off that flow of money and you would see prices drift back down to being in line with local incomes.

Those who are most screwed are the under-40s with no parents in Vancouver to hand them a nice cash-out cheque. So if you came here from anywhere else looking to make your tech or film industry career you're hooped.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

For all intents and purposes...Millennials that do not possess property (or will not inherit it) should just get out of here while they can. This is per the trend of "21st Century Colonization"; we are being priced out and forced to migrate. What complicates matters is that our economy depends off this influx of capital...

Yup! You say it right, especially in your last sentence! Many folks who can afford to stay in the Lower Mainland actually get employment from the foreign money coming, be it anyone involved in the real estate business from financial, accounting, law, property developer and real estate firms, to consulting firms like civil, structural, architectural, and geotechnical, to contractors like builders, material suppliers, fabricators, to retailers like auto dealers, grocers, high-end merchandisers, day-to-day service providers, etc etc, and the list goes on.

To stop this money coming in also means a potential loss of jobs for many people in these sectors, which are huge in their own right. Seriously, can we afford to? The BC and Ontario economies are considered "healthy" as compared to other parts of Canada for one reason alone: foreign money. What is our government trying to do to promote other forms of industries and to grow entrepreneurs in order not to be so dependent on foreign money? I think they have limited ideas and the latest ones like promoting LNG and oil pipelines have already been shot down by, you guess it, we locals! If none can come up with an answer to solving this crisis, those who keep blaming the Chinese or other rich investors alone as scapegoats would only make them look dumb.

Originally Posted by whatnext

Choke off that flow of money and you would see prices drift back down to being in line with local incomes.

Those who are most screwed are the under-40s with no parents in Vancouver to hand them a nice cash-out cheque. So if you came here from anywhere else looking to make your tech or film industry career you're hooped.

Then there will be many foreclosures when locals lose their jobs and can't afford their homes due to the floundering economy, just like what happened in the US 2008. You can't just choke it off outright. There should be strategies to gain more out of the foreigners and policies that make sure they park more long-term income here before giving them residency status.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Vin

Yup! You say it right, especially in your last sentence! Many folks who can afford to stay in the Lower Mainland actually get employment from the foreign money coming, be it anyone involved in the real estate business from financial, accounting, law, property developer and real estate firms, to consulting firms like civil, structural, architectural, and geotechnical, to contractors like builders, material suppliers, fabricators, to retailers like auto dealers, grocers, high-end merchandisers, day-to-day service providers, etc etc, and the list goes on.

To stop this money coming in also means a potential loss of jobs for many people in these sectors, which are huge in their own right. Seriously, can we afford to? The BC and Ontario economies are considered "healthy" as compared to other parts of Canada for one reason alone: foreign money. What is our government trying to do to promote other forms of industries and to grow entrepreneurs in order not to be so dependent on foreign money? I think they have limited ideas and the latest ones like promoting LNG and oil pipelines have already been shot down by, you guess it, we locals! If none can come up with an answer to solving this crisis, those who keep blaming the Chinese or other rich investors alone as scapegoats would only make them look dumb.

Then there will be many foreclosures when locals lose their jobs and can't afford their homes due to the floundering economy, just like what happened in the US 2008. You can't just choke it off outright. There should be strategies to gain more out of the foreigners and policies that make sure they park more long-term income here before giving them residency status.

There might be a few initial job losses in peripheral jobs like luxury car sales but it would not be anything like the USA in 2008. And that would be more than offset by vastly more affordable housing stock.

China is a poor bet to build your economy on. It's tottering along now, but when the Communist Party edifice finally falls it will be nasty. I'm beginning hope Trump actually wins, he's probably reckless enough to call China's trade bluff. They are trashing Western economies in so many ways, read this article on how they're dumping steel on the world market, all to keep the party apparachiks in power:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/04/bu...=business&_r=0

[s211]

Originally Posted by whatnext

So if you came here from anywhere else looking to make your tech or film industry career you're hooped.

Oddly enough, the only two employment sectors that Vision will countenance.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by whatnext

There might be a few initial job losses in peripheral jobs like luxury car sales but it would not be anything like the USA in 2008. And that would be more than offset by vastly more affordable housing stock.

China is a poor bet to build your economy on. It's tottering along now, but when the Communist Party edifice finally falls it will be nasty. I'm beginning hope Trump actually wins, he's probably reckless enough to call China's trade bluff. They are trashing Western economies in so many ways, read this article on how they're dumping steel on the world market, all to keep the party apparachiks in power:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/04/bu...=business&_r=0

Chinese money is distorting property markets globally in cities ranging Hong Kong to Sydney to Singapore to London. You think Vancouver is the only city going through this pain?

Blaming the nasty Chicoms for the problem is an emotional response that hides the real issue: Vancouver needs a coherent and comprehensive affordable housing strategy. Develop housing targeted at people earning below a certain salary (Singapore's HDB program). Put limits on how soon someone can sell a property -- that isn't their main residence -- after buying it. There needs to be a much higher tax on property transactions paid for by the buyer (this measure really took the steam out of HK's property markey for a while. It's also been implemented in the UK). Plow these funds back into affordable housing. Limit certain housing developments to Canadian citizens only (done in Switzerland for Swiss nationals).

There are many examples out there of what can be done. It just takes political will and forethought to implement it. The bigger question is whether this would be countenanced by the developers and property owners who are benefiting from this ridiculous market.

**edit: you'd better hope Trump dosn't get elected... There will be a flood of Americans looking to buy property in Vancouver!

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Chinese money is distorting property markets globally in cities ranging Hong Kong to Sydney to Singapore to London. You think Vancouver is the only city going through this pain?

Blaming the nasty Chicoms for the problem is an emotional response that hides the real issue: Vancouver needs a coherent and comprehensive affordable housing strategy. Develop housing targeted at people earning below a certain salary (Singapore's HDB program). Put limits on how soon someone can sell a property -- that isn't their main residence -- after buying it. There needs to be a much higher tax on property transactions paid for by the buyer (this measure really took the steam out of HK's property markey for a while. It's also been implemented in the UK). Plow these funds back into affordable housing. Limit certain housing developments to Canadian citizens only (done in Switzerland for Swiss nationals).

There are many examples out there of what can be done. It just takes political will and forethought to implement it. The bigger question is whether this would be countenanced by the developers and property owners who are benefiting from this ridiculous market.

**edit: you'd better hope Trump dosn't get elected... There will be a flood of Americans looking to buy property in Vancouver!

I agree 100% with everything you suggest.

But at the heart of the problem is wealthy Chinese buyers trying to stash their money out of the country. That is not to say everyone immigrating from China falls into this category, far from it. People forget there are plenty of legitimate Chinese immigrants actually coming here to start a better life and they are getting burned by this insane property speculation along with everyone else.

As to Trump driving Americans here, I'm not too worried. Unlike the Chinese, Americans really do believe their country is exceptional and have a hard time imagining living anywhere else.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by whatnext

As to Trump driving Americans here, I'm not too worried. Unlike the Chinese, Americans really do believe their country is exceptional and have a hard time imagining living anywhere else.

I'm the son of an ex-American who left for political reasons. There are lots of Americans in Vancouver. Of course most of them are left-leaning middle class and happy to pay taxes and contribute to society and community.

[cornholio]

In a globalized world where the west pumped trillions of dollars into the developing world, a developing world rife with inequality, corruption and a shit quality of life it should be no surprise that those trillions are being pumped right back into the west. Unfortunately the money is being pumped into a select few markets and into all the wrong things by ignorant people who have no real knowledge of the markets they are pumping their money in. Will they lose in the long run? Probably. But so will the residents. Its the governments job to regulate and protect markets. They do it all the time and need to do it again. How money flows and into what needs to be completely re thought in a globalized world where the west is pumping money into developing countries and trying to build them up rapidly. The current status quo wont work long term in Vancouver nor London nor Sydney nor any other city that is a target.

[Klazu]

Got an ad in the mail today, which I thought was a good sign of the current times. I don't have it at hand right now, so I am paraphrasing here, but you get the gist.

"Over 80% of the potential buyers in your area speak Chinese. Why would you go without a realtor that also speaks buyers' language? Hire us, blaa blaa ..."

This is in Metrotown, but I am sure they are correct. Our new building is a big building, but I would say that 95% (not kidding!) of the residents are of Asian descent. Nothing wrong with that, not at all, but it does feel a kind of odd to be almost the only Caucasian person living in a very large building...

[NetMapel]

The Vancouver market is indeed extremely hot right now. However, I firmly believe that if it's not the Chinese, then it would have been other foreigners that's causing the same situation in our market. Remember the Persian scare many years back ? The Japanese scare ? The Indians ? Vancouver is just a very desirable region that will always have great demand. It is also a very land-locked region geographically speaking like Hong Kong, Tokyo... etc. With the rise of globalization, it is unfortunately exaggerating the whole situation by quite a bit. With internet and social media being popular now, now everybody is venting and ranting because of these news stories. I bet people were equally pissed off back then just without the ability to vent on the internet...

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Klazu

This is in Metrotown, but I am sure they are correct. Our new building is a big building, but I would say that 95% (not kidding!) of the residents are of Asian descent. Nothing wrong with that, not at all, but it does feel a kind of odd to be almost the only Caucasian person living in a very large building...

I almost bought in an all-Persian building (Woodcroft near Capilano river). I had school friends that lived there before it was all Persian but now the mix is gone. Very strange when that happens in such a multicultural city.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

The Vancouver market is indeed extremely hot right now. However, I firmly believe that if it's not the Chinese, then it would have been other foreigners that's causing the same situation in our market. Remember the Persian scare many years back ? The Japanese scare ? The Indians ? Vancouver is just a very desirable region that will always have great demand. It is also a very land-locked region geographically speaking like Hong Kong, Tokyo... etc. With the rise of globalization, it is unfortunately exaggerating the whole situation by quite a bit. With internet and social media being popular now, now everybody is venting and ranting because of these news stories. I bet people were equally pissed off back then just without the ability to vent on the internet...

What happened in the past was minor to what is happening now. First of all foreign speculation into residential properties should be completely eliminated. Second of all Canada is supposed to be targeting mostly skilled workers who will come in, live and work. It doesn't matter what qualifications someone produces, if their coming in as a multi millionaire they should not be classified as a skilled worker. They wont work. They are not the people Canada should be targeting. In-fact I would go so far as to say that individuals above a certain net worth should not be allowed to take advantage of the experience and skilled workers programs. Thirdly money coming in needs to be taxed in creative ways especially when it is being used on things like real-estate. That doesn't mean tax everything away. But it means to be creative in your taxation schemes to derive maximum value for current residents. Lastly the Quebec investor scheme needs to be stopped. Hey don't get me wrong I own property outside of Canada.

Now before someone mentions interest rates. Of-course they are playing a major part. They are allowing Canadians to unfortunately try to keep up by taking on greater debt because the market is clouded and they dont understand what is happening so they cant make rational choices and end up taking blind risks. But the main problem is still foreign money and foreign ignorance that is distorting the market and making things worse. And the government stands by idly while the situation gets worse. And it wont end well.

[Stingray2004]

Will say it again. Back in the late 1980's folk from Hong Kong inundated the SFD residential real estate market in Metro Vancouver... esp. Richmond and the west side of Van City proper - they changed the demographic landscape thereto forever. As well as commercial real estate.

That was on top of pent-up demand from the local market as well as net inter-provincial inflows. Yes, SFD housing prices spiked. But this from today:

The benchmark price for single-family detached houses sold last month in Tsawwassen, B.C., reached a record $1.17-million, up 41 per cent since April, 2015.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-...ticle29842167/

Holy fuck! 41% in just one year? I grew up in "back-water" Tsawwassen and have both family and a good chunk of friends there. No "Chinese" conspiracy in terms of recent SFD purchases thereto.

Just a matter of a great area to live in combined with minimal new SFD being constructed in Metro Van at large. Land is just too expensive with both physical constraints as well as the ALR.

And another 1 million are expected to reside within Metro Vancouver within 40 years? Imagine the price consequential thereto.

Yep. Houston... we've got a problem.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I almost bought in an all-Persian building (Woodcroft near Capilano river). I had school friends that lived there before it was all Persian but now the mix is gone. Very strange when that happens in such a multicultural city.

Yeah, I would be a bit concerned to buy in a building like this. There was recently a news story of a building somewhere in Richmong where all Strata meetings are held in Chinese language, as well as minutes that were posted to non-participants. There was someone that didn'tspeak Chinese also owning in the building and it was a major pain for him not knowing what was going on!

As a tenant such doesn't affect me, but it is something to think about when buying. Our landlord is a local investor that has a portfolio of condos in Metro Vancouver. Let's see how long we are able to hold on to this amazing place, times being as crazy as they are...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

The Vancouver market is indeed extremely hot right now. However, I firmly believe that if it's not the Chinese, then it would have been other foreigners that's causing the same situation in our market. Remember the Persian scare many years back ? The Japanese scare ? The Indians ? Vancouver is just a very desirable region that will always have great demand. It is also a very land-locked region geographically speaking like Hong Kong, Tokyo... etc. With the rise of globalization, it is unfortunately exaggerating the whole situation by quite a bit. With internet and social media being popular now, now everybody is venting and ranting because of these news stories. I bet people were equally pissed off back then just without the ability to vent on the internet...

I agree with this, but PRC speculation is driving up prices in every desirable spot in the Pacific Rim, not just Canada. Singapore has foreign ownership restrictions, Hong Kong has a tax, Australia has restrictions AND they forced illegally-purchased-home owners to sell their houses. Even England's considering restrictions. We're the only schmucks with nothing to stop foreign money from swamping the market.

On the other hand, said foreign money is the only thing keeping the province's economy afloat...