Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[GernB]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Yeah I would put it about on par with the BMO reno's if a Canopy was involved price wise. However the building itself would be about 45M or even less, Seats would run you another 4-5M concourse refresh would be pretty cheap 2M? add an additional 8M for exterior upgrades. I think A canopy would really put Calgary on par with Toronto,Hamilton and Ottawa and slightly under Winnipeg. It would instantly become one of my favourite in the league

The concourse would be horrendously expensive IMO. It's very narrow; you'd have to widen it substantially, and that would mean relocating some load bearing elements, if possible. Plus additional new, modern standard washrooms and concessions...exterior finishes, if brick or stone like IGF or Mosaic wouldn't come cheap either. New lighting and sound systems...you can see where the costs would mount in a hurry.

[Skyisnolimit]

Calgary deserves and needs a new football stadium . As far as a rink Saddledome really is not that old for a arena .

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Skyisnolimit

Calgary deserves and needs a new football stadium . As far as a rink Saddledome really is not that old for a arena .

Saddledome not that old? By NHL standards it certainly is.

Discounting Madison Square Gardens which just had about $1 billion poured into it in renovations in 2011-13 and Edmonton and Detroit which will both be moving into new arenas in the next 2 years, the Saddledome will be 10 years older then the next oldest arenas in the NHL. The Saddledome will have been open for business for 33 years come this October and if you've ever been there then you will have experienced the amazingly tight concourses.

It, like McMahon, need to be replaced - McMahon could be refurbished if possible but the Saddledome's time is due. The old girl has served Calgary well, was brought back to life after the 2013 flood but Calgary needs something better and more capable.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by speedog

It, like McMahon, need to be replaced - McMahon could be refurbished if possible but the Saddledome's time is due. The old girl has served Calgary well, was brought back to life after the 2013 flood but Calgary needs something better and more capable.

Is there any way to ensure that these hugely expensive taxpayer-subsidized playpens last more than 25 years? It's amazing how quickly yesterday's stunning debutante turns into today's "old girl".

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Is there any way to ensure that these hugely expensive taxpayer-subsidized playpens last more than 25 years? It's amazing how quickly yesterday's stunning debutante turns into today's "old girl".

Make sure your municipal government isn't idiotic and foots the bill entirely on their own?

[esquire]

It's not clear to me exactly what the problem with the Saddledome is in the first place. It has club seats, skyboxes, lounges and all of those modern trappings... the only remotely legitimate gripe I hear about it is that the roof is too low or something for the purposes of accommodating the various rigging elements needed for big concerts (although really to my eyes it doesn't look as though the Saddledome's roof is inordinately low... it appears to be no lower than the MTS Centre's, and it has hosted just about every arena show there is).

So really, are the various levels of government supposed to pony up big dollars so that Calgary can have more Lady Gaga concerts?

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Is there any way to ensure that these hugely expensive taxpayer-subsidized playpens last more than 25 years? It's amazing how quickly yesterday's stunning debutante turns into today's "old girl".

Easy to say when the ACC is 16 years newer and has way nicer amenities for the fans.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's not clear to me exactly what the problem with the Saddledome is in the first place. It has club seats, skyboxes, lounges and all of those modern trappings... the only remotely legitimate gripe I hear about it is that the roof is too low or something for the purposes of accommodating the various rigging elements needed for big concerts (although really to my eyes it doesn't look as though the Saddledome's roof is inordinately low... it appears to be no lower than the MTS Centre's, and it has hosted just about every arena show there is).

So really, are the various levels of government supposed to pony up big dollars so that Calgary can have more Lady Gaga concerts?

It most likely is strictly about how much money CSEC can make and the small concourses and inadequate washroom facilities turn it into a not great experience for the average fan. Even for the people who have to work/volunteer in the various restaurants/food places, it is an unbearably cramped area most of them work in and so much so that it makes it difficult to serve customers properly as there just isn't enough prep or storage space.

As for the roof and concerts, it's not about it's height - it's design means it just can not accommodate the weight of the apparatus that some of these acts need to hang from the roof/trusses, cool looking arena roof but that cable supported roof is that arena's downfall.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by GernB

The concourse would be horrendously expensive IMO. It's very narrow; you'd have to widen it substantially, and that would mean relocating some load bearing elements, if possible. Plus additional new, modern standard washrooms and concessions...exterior finishes, if brick or stone like IGF or Mosaic wouldn't come cheap either. New lighting and sound systems...you can see where the costs would mount in a hurry.

No youre missing the point you wouldn't have to add much space in the existing concourses as you would be adding almost 1/3rd or more of concourse space in the endzone which would be a big draw in terms of beer gardens and washroom facilities. As for the exterior you wouldn't have to completely recover the thing. the exposed beam look isn't unacceptable It's just the entrances that would need to be brought up to date. Look at BMO it looks great and is for the most part completely exposed. If MLSE could add a completely new grand stand, put up a canopy, new lights, sound ,jumbotron and construct clubs, private suites, player facilities for 90M-100M I don't see why Calgary cant bring McMahon up to par for 80M or less minus the canopy.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by speedog

Saddledome not that old? By NHL standards it certainly is.

The Saddledome will have been open for business for 33 years come this October and if you've ever been there then you will have experienced the amazingly tight concourses.

So by this logic Toronto,LA,Vancouver,Montreal,Chicago,Boston,San jose,Colarado,Anahiem and about 5-6 other NHL markets should start gearing up for new arena talks in the next 5-10 years? come on The saddledome isn't THAT bad and the flames could be profitable in that building for decades to come.. Even old rexall is still a fine home for an NHL team please stop acting like the Dome isn't suitable to today's NHL because of cramped concourses (welcome to canada) and lack of fancy windows. It sat 20K with the same concourses 3 decades ago the way it does today, people weren't banging on the doors for a new arena then! this is arena envy at it's finest. Worry about McMahon that's the real problem

You wanna know tight concourses, Look no further than Winnipeg. And Ive been to Rogers Arena several times and I can tell you they are equally as bad.

[tomthumb2]

I think the majority of fans in Calgary would be happier with wider/improved concourses and more washrooms in both the Saddledome and McMahon but from the Flames perspective they want to keep up with Jones's (ie: Edmonton, Regina, etc) and have more luxury seating, private boxes etc. All this is moot right now anyway since I think we have bigger priorities here for the foreseeable future.

[harls]

I think building a new arena has a lot to do with public pressure from wherever - fans, the league, media, skyscraper sites) than the state of the actual building, which could, in reality, do the job a lot longer than our instant download, gimme-now society is used to.

[osmo]

Is anybody staying away simply due to the Saddledome? Many would be surprised what fans put up with for a winning team.

Nobody complains about long in the tooth Rogers Centre when its full and the team is winning.

Places like Tampa Bay have true flawed stadiums because even if the Rays are winning fans stay away and don't want to go there.

Let Mr King pay up if he wants a new arena. He has the money. These rich guys don't even open up a cheque book for these mega deals, its all high-end creditor deals us peons don't have access to. Add on goodies Calgary would still give in free/cheap land and a generous municipal tax setup and it is hard to feel sorry for these guys. What makes Calgary different then the other Canadian rinks that were constructed largely with private money.

[GernB]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

No youre missing the point you wouldn't have to add much space in the existing concourses as you would be adding almost 1/3rd or more of concourse space in the endzone which would be a big draw in terms of beer gardens and washroom facilities. As for the exterior you wouldn't have to completely recover the thing. the exposed beam look isn't unacceptable It's just the entrances that would need to be brought up to date. Look at BMO it looks great and is for the most part completely exposed. If MLSE could add a completely new grand stand, put up a canopy, new lights, sound ,jumbotron and construct clubs, private suites, player facilities for 90M-100M I don't see why Calgary cant bring McMahon up to par for 80M or less minus the canopy.

Not missing the point at all, just disagreeing with it. Even if you have a few hundred people hanging around in the end zone, it doesn't address the overcrowding that results from 35,000 people using a concourse that was designed for 20,000. Forcing people to walk from their sideline seats to the end zones for the concessions and to use the bathrooms doesn't solve the problem as you've simply moved the overcrowding from one area to another, even more troublesome one, besides the likelihood of lost revenue from lack/inconvenience of concessions. And there's also the question of bringing the existing structure up to modern building codes.

Frank King has stated that to do what the Stamps would like at McMahon would cost in the neighbourhood of $100m. Considering the way these sorts of projects tend to grow from their original estimates, I'd say that's optimistic.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by GernB

Not missing the point at all, just disagreeing with it. Even if you have a few hundred people hanging around in the end zone, it doesn't address the overcrowding that results from 35,000 people using a concourse that was designed for 20,000. Forcing people to walk from their sideline seats to the end zones for the concessions and to use the bathrooms doesn't solve the problem as you've simply moved the overcrowding from one area to another, even more troublesome one, besides the likelihood of lost revenue from lack/inconvenience of concessions. And there's also the question of bringing the existing structure up to modern building codes.

Frank King has stated that to do what the Stamps would like at McMahon would cost in the neighbourhood of $100m. Considering the way these sorts of projects tend to grow from their original estimates, I'd say that's optimistic.

Jesus do you calgarians believe that you're the only city on earth with over crowding issues? IGF is brand new and has crowding issues. Commonwealth half empty has over crowding issues. You put 20,000-30,000 blatters springing for bathrooms at the same time it doesn't matter how many bathrooms you have they will be over crowded. The big O is the only venue I can think of that has enough concourse space for it's patrons. If you can relieve some of that stress on McMahon by adding a well thought out %30-40 capacity of washrooms in the endzone It will go a long way You wouldn't be forcing everyone to walk from their sideline seats to the endzone because the existing washrooms would still be in place. If it cost 100M than so be it! better than 300M for a new one or 500M for CalgaryNext. I would rather see them dump 145M into McMahon then build a THF for the same price. 100M is a bargain as far as I'm concerned

[logan5]

The Saddledome already has an NHL standard capacity, it's downtown where you want it and it's close to a C-Train station. The only problem it seems is the the concourse area.

If the concourse area is a problem for the Saddledome, why can't it be expanded? That would be a lot cheaper than building a new stadium. Along with an increased concourse area, you could build a major casino right into the Saddledome, and maybe a hotel.

This is also a perfect spot to build a stadium district just as Edmonton is doing, except of course that the Stampede takes place on these grounds. Maybe move the Stampede?

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Jesus do you calgarians believe that you're the only city on earth with over crowding issues? IGF is brand new and has crowding issues. Commonwealth half empty has over crowding issues. You put 20,000-30,000 blatters springing for bathrooms at the same time it doesn't matter how many bathrooms you have they will be over crowded.

Ummm, as a Calgarian of 36+ years, no.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Jesus do you calgarians believe that you're the only city on earth with over crowding issues? IGF is brand new and has crowding issues. Commonwealth half empty has over crowding issues. You put 20,000-30,000 blatters springing for bathrooms at the same time it doesn't matter how many bathrooms you have they will be over crowded. The big O is the only venue I can think of that has enough concourse space for it's patrons. If you can relieve some of that stress on mcmahon by adding a well though out %40 capacity of washrooms in the endzone It will go a long way. It's not like you would be closing the existing. If it cost 100M than so be it! better than 300M for a new one or 145M for THF which would gain nothing over a renovated McMahon.

Is there some reason you douchebags up in the Chuck deserved a new arena... and we do not? What exactly was wrong with Rexall that isn't wrong with the Saddledome? In fact we miss out on a pile of concerts here that you people get there because Rexall has a roof that can handle the stage set ups! The bottom line is the Saddledome does need to be replaced, and more so than McMahon... simply because the NHL is a big money league! I'd be fine with a McMahon reno, and it's more doable than a Saddledome one.

And for the record... I've never waited to have a piss at MetLife, NRG, Yankee, Citi, Chase, Mile High, CenturyLink, Coors, U of Phoenix Stadiums... guess they know how to build them down south!

[speedog]

Originally Posted by logan5

The Saddledome already has an NHL standard capacity, it's downtown where you want it and it's close to a C-Train station. The only problem it seems is the the concourse area.

If the concourse area is a problem for the Saddledome, why can't it be expanded? That would be a lot cheaper than building a new stadium. Along with an increased concourse area, you could build a major casino right into the Saddledome, and maybe a hotel.

This is also a perfect spot to build a stadium district just as Edmonton is doing, except of course that the Stampede takes place on these grounds. Maybe move the Stampede?

The Calgary Exhibition and Stampede won't ever be moving from where they are as they are just too entrenched there and if anything, they've been growing their land holdings in this area more than many people realize.

As far as a casino, one of Calgary's newest casinos is situated less than 400 meters away from the Saddledome but CSEC not see a dime from that as I believe that the Cowboys Casino is owned by the Stampede as well.

As far as hotels and an entertainment district, the Stampde has some fairly grandiose plans in place already but once again CSEC probably wouldn't make a dime off of that either if it ever comes to be.

As far as the Saddledome, yeah it has crowded concourses and washroom facilities but it also sees a lot of entertainment acts pass by Calgary because it's design just can not accommodate the rigging of some of these shows.

So it comes down to a few things, two large groups, CSEC and CE&S, who don't want to play nice or share profits plus an arena that most definitely has some inadequacies when compared to arenas in other major North American cities that are Calgary's size or larger or smaller. Now also realize that there are numerous Calgarians who do not support tax payer monies going into such a venture despite what some in these forums who seem to think otherwise.

Finally, what is so wrong for Calgarians to want or express a want for a new arena or stadium, many other cities in Canada have seen new or much updated facilities come to fruition and yet, it seems that there are a growing number of people in this forum who think that Calgary doesn't need the same. Really, I don't get that and it would be nice if people would explain why Calgary can continue to make do with a 55 year old stadium and a 32 year old arena.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

Is there some reason you douchebags up in the Chuck deserved a new arena... and we do not? What exactly was wrong with Rexall that isn't wrong with the Saddledome? In fact we miss out on a pile of concerts here that you people get there because Rexall has a roof that can handle the stage set ups! The bottom line is the Saddledome does need to be replaced, and more so than McMahon... simply because the NHL is a big money league! I'd be fine with a McMahon reno, and it's more doable than a Saddledome one.

And for the record... I've never waited to have a piss at MetLife, NRG, Yankee, Citi, Chase, Mile High, CenturyLink, Coors, U of Phoenix Stadiums... guess they know how to build them down south!

The capacity was below NHL standard with no real way to expand, it was in a part of the city that failed to create much (if any) in the way peripheral impact, it didn't have any of the modern amenities or any room to add them and the cost to renovate and bring it up to standard was in the range of 250million while having to be done like open heart surgery over multiple seasons and it was ten years older than the Saddledome, it was located next to one LRT line with a station that was too small.
I dunno there could be more but overall the Saddledome had always been a better venue except the roof issue for concerts.
The Saddledome seems to only have two issues, the concourse space I guess, still way bigger than rexall was, the roof...is that enough reason to go all new vs. Renovate or add, I don't care.
CONNOR MCDAVID