Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by libtard

Fingers crossed this never gets built. Metro Van is already blanketed in public transit options. Time for our highway network to catch up

You're kidding, right? Study after study proves that you can't build your way out of congestion. Not to mention they just completed the SFPR, the new PMB soon to complete the Hwy 1 upgrades, planned upgrades for Hwy 1 northshore, planned upgrades of the GMT with associated upgrades.

Plenty has been spent and committed to the lower mainland highway network. Also, Translink is more than transit. A new bridge between Surrey and New West is also part of this plan.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I don't see all that much difference between that and asking everyone outside of Surrey to pay for their LRT system...

That having been said, it makes sense to me that UBC itself should chip in something to merit a UBC extension, rather like YVR did.

The thing with Surrey is they are actually trying to go it alone if they have too. They are not putting their fate too much on the referendum, and at the very least, is working on a backup plan to get their LRT, whether the region delivers or not. As a matter of fact, the peeve that Surrey has is they do contribute far more than what they receive back.

For example, the entire region contributed to the Canada Line that services mostly Vancouver. But I don't think the city of Vancouver contributed its fair proportion for the service it receives. And once again, they want the same with the Broadway Line wherein most of the funding comes from outside the region.

Add to this is the fact that the proponents for extending all the way to UBC seems to be okay with everyone in the entire country paying for it, while UBC students, the main beneficiary contribute nothing. A solution to ensure UBC students pay their fair share is to tack on a UBC Line surcharge on their tuition fees, something most UBC students can easily afford. Its no different than YVR tacking on the surcharge to pay for their share of the Canada Line.

At least Gregor was willing to compromise....just letting the region pay up to Arbutus, and even top off the funding needed to tunnel (as the region will only be willing to pay the elevated cost). I see no desire to compromise or contribute on the UBC part. Neither school nor students want to contribute their fair share.

As far as the Broadway Line is concerned, it is only needed up to Arbutus only. Regional contribution is justified to that extent since it will also ensure people from Surrey and Coquitlam can easily access destinations in Broadway, most which end in Arbutus.

Most students from other parts of the region tend to go to SFU, BCIT, Douglas, VCC and so on, while UBC students tend to live at the Westside, or rent places at the Westside, as oppose to Whalley or Coquitlam Centre. Even international students are like that, so again, no reason to justify extending all the way to UBC. The cost/benefit ratio simply ain't there.

[Pinion]

I will never use the Broadway line, but I am in favour of it because I have to drive to/through the west Broadway area once in a while and it is a nightmare. Even if I didn't ever go to that area I'd still be in favour of it because it's badly needed for others. I'm disappointed the plan is to only go to Arbutus, if anything.

I accept that my suburb is not dense enough for RRT even though I'd love it. I don't know why Surreyites can't do the same. We're a hell of a lot more built up than South of Fraser, and arguably have worse traffic problems post-Port Mann.

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Add to this is the fact that the proponents for extending all the way to UBC seems to be okay with everyone in the entire country paying for it, while UBC students, the main beneficiary contribute nothing. A solution to ensure UBC students pay their fair share is to tack on a UBC Line surcharge on their tuition fees, something most UBC students can easily afford. Its no different than YVR tacking on the surcharge to pay for their share of the Canada Line.

The statement that UBC students contribute nothing shows just how biased you are. Just because they don't earn income and pay income taxes doesn't mean they contribute nothing. They pay tuition to the university and in turn, the university contributes to the economy and society. These students will also be the ones significantly contributing to income taxes thanks to their university degrees.

Where do you get your conclusion that most UBC students can easily afford a surcharge? Based on a few expensive cars owned by foreign students at UBC?

Most students from other parts of the region tend to go to SFU, BCIT, Douglas, VCC and so on, while UBC students tend to live at the Westside, or rent places at the Westside, as oppose to Whalley or Coquitlam Centre. Even international students are like that, so again, no reason to justify extending all the way to UBC. The cost/benefit ratio simply ain't there.

That's simply not true. Most UBC students do not live in the westside. Geez no wonder you're so against the UBC line. There is a significant portion that come from the east side, Burnaby and Richmond. Most students from the westside would still continue using the east-west buses to UBC, it's simply more convenient than transferring to the subway. The UBC line would largely benefit students (in addition other commuters) further east along the Millennium and Expo line instead. Rapid transit benefits regional rather than local populations.

The cost/benefit ratio is there when UBC is the third regional commuter destination. There's enough ridership to justify it.

[urbancanadian]

To add to squeezied's post, I thought I'd add this map showing the origin of those commuting to UBC.


From the UBC Alma Mater Society

Also keep in mind that as BC's third largest employment centre AND transit destination, the university is a larger destination than Metrotown, downtown Richmond, New Westminster, downtown Surrey, etc.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

For example, the entire region contributed to the Canada Line that services mostly Vancouver. But I don't think the city of Vancouver contributed its fair proportion for the service it receives. And once again, they want the same with the Broadway Line wherein most of the funding comes from outside the region.

While the Canada Line directly services Vancouver the most you are completely ignoring the fact that it also connects Richmond and the airport. It has served Richmond so well it they have had to add trains. On top of that the Canada Line also indirectly serves south Delta and south Surrey/Whiterock. The 351 in south Surrey is now part of the FTN now in large part to the Canada Line.

The city of Vancouver pays it's fair share for the service they receive. They pay with the farebox. It's not like Vancouver has empty buses going by every 5 minutes.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

To add to squeezied's post, I thought I'd add this map showing the origin of those commuting to UBC.


From the UBC Alma Mater Society

And as you can clearly see in the map, a HUGE majority of UBC commuters already reside within the city of Vancouver and has a fairly close proximity to the campus, not requiring a long commute. The impact of extending the Broadway Line to UBC would be minimal for the entire region as most people heading to that campus either for work and school can easily do so by driving or taking a local bus. Hence why the extension itself is simply NOT justified.

Now if the graphic shows a much more denser field in the Eastern suburbs...sure! But clearly this is not the case. Presumably this graphic was shown to civic leaders, transit planners, etc and they likely arrived at the same conclusion I did...

Originally Posted by bardak

While the Canada Line directly services Vancouver the most you are completely ignoring the fact that it also connects Richmond and the airport. It has served Richmond so well it they have had to add trains. On top of that the Canada Line also indirectly serves south Delta and south Surrey/Whiterock. The 351 in south Surrey is now part of the FTN now in large part to the Canada Line.

The city of Vancouver pays it's fair share for the service they receive. They pay with the farebox. It's not like Vancouver has empty buses going by every 5 minutes.

Vancouver also gets the most expensive and fanciest buses, some which cannot even be used in other parts of the region. WRT Richmond, that is another story but they didn't get what they want (surface Canada Line) and for what they did get, its kinda crappy service (cough...Brighouse Station).

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by squeezied

Honest and well thought of doesn't describe your last post.

Sorry, I just had to post that...

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

And as you can clearly see in the map, a HUGE majority of UBC commuters already reside within the city of Vancouver and has a fairly close proximity to the campus, not requiring a long commute. The impact of extending the Broadway Line to UBC would be minimal for the entire region as most people heading to that campus either for work and school can easily do so by driving or taking a local bus. Hence why the extension itself is simply NOT justified.

Now if the graphic shows a much more denser field in the Eastern suburbs...sure! But clearly this is not the case. Presumably this graphic was shown to civic leaders, transit planners, etc and they likely arrived at the same conclusion I did...

This map correlates to the regional density. It shows a lot of students from Vancouver because Vancouver is denser than the eastern suburbs. You should know that. So by your logic you're suggesting if the eastern suburbs were as dense as Vancouver then we should build the subway to UBC?

Anyways the graphic states that 40% of UBC students originate outside of Vancouver. That's a significant portion of people commuting to UBC.

You have yet to put on a convincing and thoughtful argument. Your child-like comments and hatred for the westside certainly doesn't serve your point.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by squeezied

This map correlates to the regional density. It shows a lot of students from Vancouver because Vancouver is denser than the eastern suburbs. You should know that. So by your logic you're suggesting if the eastern suburbs were as dense as Vancouver then we should build the subway to UBC?

Anyways the graphic states that 40% of UBC students originate outside of Vancouver. That's a significant portion of people commuting to UBC.

The graphic says the origin, not the regional density. Since majority of the origin of UBC students are within the city of Vancouver, then the benefit will be minimal as oppose to those who commute to UBC and need to get there fast. Even those outside of Vancouver such as Burnaby and Richmond is already well served by local buses such as the 25.

The ones that can really benefit from extending to UBC all the way would be the ones in the Northeast (via Evergreen), SoF (via Expo) and New West (which simply does not have a large, young population numerically). Clearly the amount of UBC people from those areas are simply not enough to justify extending the Broadway Line beyond Arbutus.

Plus there are alternatives such as building more student housing or densifying the Westside, which will happen like the Canada Line related developments in Oakridge. Those living in the Northeast or SoF can take advantage of those (as I'm sure there will be a bajillion investment units to rent out to students) and use local buses to get to school.

[Caliplanner]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Most students from other parts of the region tend to go to SFU, BCIT, Douglas, VCC and so on, while UBC students tend to live at the Westside, or rent places at the Westside, as oppose to Whalley or Coquitlam Centre. Even international students are like that, so again, no reason to justify extending all the way to UBC. The cost/benefit ratio simply ain't there.

Don't forget though that UBC is not just an "educational destination" but also a massive employment hub for people living all over metro Vancouver (including New West, Coquitlam and even Surrey)!!!

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The graphic says the origin, not the regional density. Since majority of the origin of UBC students are within the city of Vancouver, then the benefit will be minimal as oppose to those who commute to UBC and need to get there fast. Even those outside of Vancouver such as Burnaby and Richmond is already well served by local buses such as the 25.

The ones that can really benefit from extending to UBC all the way would be the ones in the Northeast (via Evergreen), SoF (via Expo) and New West (which simply does not have a large, young population numerically). Clearly the amount of UBC people from those areas are simply not enough to justify extending the Broadway Line beyond Arbutus.

Plus there are alternatives such as building more student housing or densifying the Westside, which will happen like the Canada Line related developments in Oakridge. Those living in the Northeast or SoF can take advantage of those and use local buses to get to school.

I said the map correlates to the regional density, which it does. Of note, you can expect that in the future the single family areas of Vancouver, especially the west side, to diminish in student population and the eastern suburbs to grow in student population due to changing family demographics. There actually is a young and growing population in the eastern suburbs as young families are moving there; you wouldn't know that by just looking at that map. In a decade or two that map is going to change notably as young children reach university age, some of which will attend UBC.

Anyways I'm done with this conversation knowing you will just come up with another excuse.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The graphic says the origin, not the regional density. Since majority of the origin of UBC students are within the city of Vancouver, then the benefit will be minimal as oppose to those who commute to UBC and need to get there fast. Even those outside of Vancouver such as Burnaby and Richmond is already well served by local buses such as the 25.

The ones that can really benefit from extending to UBC all the way would be the ones in the Northeast (via Evergreen), SoF (via Expo) and New West (which simply does not have a large, young population numerically). Clearly the amount of UBC people from those areas are simply not enough to justify extending the Broadway Line beyond Arbutus.

Plus there are alternatives such as building more student housing or densifying the Westside, which will happen like the Canada Line related developments in Oakridge. Those living in the Northeast or SoF can take advantage of those (as I'm sure there will be a bajillion investment units to rent out to students) and use local buses to get to school.

Why is this still being discussed. If people actually bothered to read the cost/benefit analysis for the various projects it is clear that a Broadway line is the hands down best investment. It is not even close. That said 2/3 of a the ridership on a Broadway line is forecast to be east of Arbutus so temporarily ending it at Arbutus is fine with me. Also note that ridership on a Broadway line is anticipated to be 50% regional travellers....Like me, although I would be coming from North Delta I am more likely to use a Broadway Line than the proposed Surrey LRT lines because it connects to more destinations I would likely go to. I know I am not alone in this. Also note a Broadway line is forecast to divert several thousand riders per hour per direction North of Commercial on the Expo line, this means big savings on future Expo line upgrades.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

And as you can clearly see in the map, a HUGE majority of UBC commuters already reside within the city of Vancouver and has a fairly close proximity to the campus, not requiring a long commute. The impact of extending the Broadway Line to UBC would be minimal for the entire region as most people heading to that campus either for work and school can easily do so by driving or taking a local bus.

So what you are saying is that the biggest impact of the UBC extension will be felt by those students and staff living outside the City of Vancouver.

[red-paladin]

Back on topic please.
Anything more about UBC that doesn't relate to the project will be deleted.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Back on topic please.
Anything more about UBC that doesn't relate to the project will be deleted.

It's absolutely deplorable how much misinformation is discussed about here but there is no point in revisiting a red herring. I would like to extend red-paladin's request to other threads as well: there's been a lot of recent discussion revisiting old discussions that went no where.

Move on.

[Ridgerunner]

I have read dozens of comments on this section and I am convinced that most of the people miss an important point about the Evergreen Line ... and by that I mean the full Line, running as RRT from Coquitlam to UBC.

First the line is possibly unique among transit lines in North America in that it does not pass through a downtown anywhere. What it does do is connect some substantial assets (two universities, one major medical centre, three regional shopping centres, two large areas for development and expansion (Main/Cambie and Lake City) together with all kinds of technical start up areas and vast residential resources).

That means once it is fully built, you really don't need a car anymore at all. Everything you could possibly want, including connections to airports and Van downtown) is on the line. The first thing this saves you is $35,000 a parking spot plus all the expenses of one or more cars.

What you really need is an all year, eat all you want .. Evergreen Line transit pass, provided you live and want to work within 400/500 metres of a station.

Anything you buy can be delivered, so you all you carry is a bag, purse or business case.

The next important point that people miss is that ... who says the UBC line is only there to bring students to the campus. Why not contemplate large numbers of people living on the west side and commuting in an easterly direction to their jobs, entertainment and shopping. Who says traffic has to be one way. Just think 20 years from now after the Line has been fully built, and life has "balanced" out along the whole line.

Given that the resources along the line are technical and professional ... might not a good name for it be "Silicon Artery".

[WarrenC12]

Back on topic...

So the current transit plan has the Broadway line terminating at Arbutus. Let's assume that it will, since any extension (and cost increase) post-referendum will have the anti-Translink brigade lighting their hair on fire.

Where would the station be, and how would the area accommodate the many buses still requiring a turn around? Would this necessitate not using articulated buses to continue to UBC? Is the old Rogers lot big enough to accommodate a bus loop?

It will be interesting to see how much pressure this future scenario would put on the Arbutus ROW to be used as some sort of rail transit.

[officedweller]

From back in March 2014, JHauser's thoughts for the north side next to Rogers,
and my thoughts for the south side (tunnel under 10th Ave., but could be under Broadway too) - both make use of the Arbutus RoW:

Originally Posted by jhausner

Still would probably be not to difficult. It doesn't look like it from the overhead but in person the old train track stretch is plenty wide to make a Granville like road for several blocks dedicated just to busses. If they just did like Granville Street near the north and 2 lane wide with bus stops, you could get quite a few busses going through that stretch and not competing with cars. It would also allow any direction to "turn around" again without impacting intersections too much.

They'd have a fight though I'd imagine from neighborhood residents and not wanting "our precious overgrown grassy train tracks to be paved over with roads for busses." but it certainly could be done. Even if it is a busy station too we're not talking 20 busses or something ridiculously high. Maybe what 5 or 6 bus lines?

I don't actually know the number pulling them out of my behind, but just looking at the overhead and having been through that area quite a bit, I don't think it is terribly difficult.

Crudely 2 way road with bus size shapes. Do that 1 way and can still fit enough busses I think.

Originally Posted by officedweller

Remember that the Pinnacle project already has space for a transit plaza.

The yellow line below is what I had in mind.
No new traffic lights required (maybe 10th & Arbutus for right turns?)
Technically the bus doors would be on the opposite side of the transit mall as the subway entrance.

Alternatively, to get the bus doors on the east side, reverse the direction as shown with the light blue line.
More left turns, but I suppose there already is a set of traffic lights on Broadway at the railway tracks.

[WarrenC12]

I'm assuming one of those blocks would have to be demo'd though, I don't think you can do that kind of loop with the existing streets.

Residents of W 10th will be against it no matter what I'd imagine.