Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[twoNeurons]

Ugh. Translink bowing to the vocal minority instead of going with what actually makes sense. What's new.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Ugh. Translink bowing to the vocal minority instead of going with what actually makes sense. What's new.

They have to pick their battles. The mayors council probably could dictate what the name was in the end and I doubt that any of the other mayors really cared one way or the other and would have gone along with the tricities mayors. Don't worry people will be calling it the millennium line for decades to come.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by adrianroam95

It looks like the Evergreen Line name will stick.

Eugh...stupid name and stupid decision.

It makes no sense then to keep the Millennium Line name. The interlined route names are absurd.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by adrianroam95

It looks like the Evergreen Line name will stick.

But in what form?...

Article from the Tri-City News:

Confusion persists over future of Evergreen Line name
by Jeff Nagel - The Tri-City News
posted Aug 26, 2014 at 12:00 PM— updated Aug 26, 2014 at 1:17 PM

TransLink is trying to assure passengers it hasn't abandoned the Evergreen Line name for its latest SkyTrain extension now under construction in the northeast sector.

But officials at the transportation authority are being cagey about how and where it will apply, saying they are still investigating all naming options.

"We'll keep the Evergreen brand in some way," TransLink wayfinding project planner Jeff Deby said Monday. "Exactly how it's going to be used is still yet to be determined."

...

One unresolved issue is whether westbound trains originating from Coquitlam that terminate at VCC-Clark should be called Evergreen Line trains once they're west of Lougheed Station in Burnaby, on what's now called the Millennium Line.

"We're looking at that exactly right now and we haven't made a decision yet," Deby said. "We're trying to figure out how to integrate it into the existing network."

But nor would he promise that the Evergreen name will definitely apply on the new section of line from Lougheed through Port Moody to Coquitlam.

"I don't think there's any 'definitely' anything yet," he said. "We'll be consulting with municipal stakeholders and make sure that we're working into consideration community needs."

There's no timeline for settling the naming issues but he said there will be plenty of public notice ahead of the new line's opening in 2016.

...

http://www.tricitynews.com/news/272759181.html

[queetz@home]

I still don't understand why they are complicating things. They should simply do it the same way when the Millenium Line first came to service. That is, the name based on the route, even if it overlaps.

To once again refresh everyone's brain cells...

2002

"Expo Line to King George"

Colour: Blue

Train goes through the original Expo route, including Main Street Science World, Metrotown Station, Columbia, then goes it seperate way across the river to Scott Road up to King George

"Millenium Line to VCC / Clarke"

Colour: Yellow

Train goes through the original Expo route, including Main Street Science World, Metrotown Station, Columbia, then goes its separate way to Braid, Lougheed, Production, Brentwood up to VCC / Clarke.

2016

"Expo Line to King George"

Colour: Blue

Train goes through the original Expo route, including Main Street Science World, Metrotown Station, Columbia, then goes it seperate way across the river to Scott Road up to King George

"Millenium Line to Lougheed Town Centre"

Colour: Yellow

Train goes through the original Expo route, including Main Street Science World, Metrotown Station, Columbia, then goes its separate way to Braid and up to Lougheed Town Centre.

"Evergreen Line to VCC / Clarke"

Colour: Green

Trains goes through the new route, including Douglas LaFarge, Port Moody, Burquitlam, Lougheed Town Centre, Production, Brentwood up to VCC / Clarke.


What could possibly be more complicated than that???

The only resistance really is to change a few signs....who cares??? Signs change ALL THE TIME when there is a new road, a new business, and so on...

[TransitFreak]

Hmmm....not getting rid of Evergreen line...not sure yet what to call the existing line...why do I get the sense that Evergreen line will figure prominently down the road?

[TransitJack]

The Evergreen Line brand made sense when the line was to be a separate LRT, but now it seems to make more sense to integrate as an Mline extension.

When the Mline is eventually extended west along Broadway, we aren't going to call that section "UBC Line" or "Broadway Line", so why would we apply a different strategy for branding at the opposite end.

[dpogue]

So we'll have the E-Line, the M-Line, and ... the other E-Line? The EG-Line?
I asked on Twitter about it a while back when I was curious, and the CS person said they weren't sure anything had been decided yet and would figure it out when the line opened.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

The Evergreen Line brand made sense when the line was to be a separate LRT, but now it seems to make more sense to integrate as an Mline extension.

When the Mline is eventually extended west along Broadway, we aren't going to call that section "UBC Line" or "Broadway Line", so why would we apply a different strategy for branding at the opposite end.

No, it does not make sense to integrate as an MLine extension.

The issue here is the fact that due to the infinite wisdom of Translink, they decided to halt the current Millenium Line to stop at either Production or Lougheed Town Centre at 2016.

Otherwise, both the Evergreen Line which originates from Douglas / LaFarge, and the Millenium Line which originates from Waterfront and overlaps most of the Expo Line route until after Columbia, would end up at VCC / Clarke. The end of a western extension to Arbutus would be the end points for both the Evergreen Line and Millenium Line.

Now, even if the Millenium Line is shortened up to just Lougheed and the Evergreen Line just going all the way to VCC / Clarke at 2016 onwards, doesn't mean the Millenium Line will end at Lougheed forever. In some future date when the demand warrants it and the funding is stable, it too can go all the way to VCC / Clarke or Arbutus. So both the Evergreen Line and Millenium Line would be sharing the overlap from Lougheed Station westward.

Makes sense?

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The issue here is the fact that due to the infinite wisdom of Translink, they decided to halt the current Millenium Line to stop at either Production or Lougheed Town Centre at 2016.

Otherwise, both the Evergreen Line which originates from Douglas / LaFarge, and the Millenium Line which originates from Waterfront and overlaps most of the Expo Line route until after Columbia, would end up at VCC / Clarke. The end of a western extension to Arbutus would be the end points for both the Evergreen Line and Millenium Line.

Now, even if the Millenium Line is shortened up to just Lougheed and the Evergreen Line just going all the way to VCC / Clarke at 2016 onwards, doesn't mean the Millenium Line will end at Lougheed forever. In some future date when the demand warrants it and the funding is stable, it too can go all the way to VCC / Clarke or Arbutus. So both the Evergreen Line and Millenium Line would be sharing the overlap from Lougheed Station westward.

Makes sense?

I agree with you from the view of how the system would ideally work, with the Millennium Line running Waterfront <-> VCC-Clark and the Evergreen Line running from Douglas-Lafarge Lake <-> VCC-Clark. I take SkyTrain from Braid to VCC-Clark every day, and it's going to seem stupid going one stop, transfering, and then continuing.

I do also understand the technical reasons for wanting to avoid interlining though. The trains are meant to operate on a schedule which interlines them perfectly. In practice, that schedule starts breaking as soon as you introduce real-world variables like passengers holding doors, intrusion alarms closing the track, or passenger alarms from on-board the train.
As those delays add up, you end up in situations where multiple trains are trying to reserve switches at Columbia and blocking each other, which adds even more delay.

Then you have a train time-out at Waterfront and all service everywhere has to stop in order to maintain spacing. This is the main reason that when there's guideway maintenance or issues on one of the lines, they run the Millennium Line as turn-backs from Columbia. It significantly simplifies the timing for everything.

Adding Evergreen Line to that, you're now trying to keep Millennium Line trains interlined with two separate lines (Evergreen and Expo), and any delays anywhere will cause a hold across the system.

If they run Evergreen Line independently with no interlining, it could keep operating regardless of delays to Expo Line trains.

[Meraki]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The issue here is the fact that due to the infinite wisdom of Translink, they decided to halt the current Millenium Line to stop at either Production or Lougheed Town Centre at 2016.

Otherwise, both the Evergreen Line which originates from Douglas / LaFarge, and the Millenium Line which originates from Waterfront and overlaps most of the Expo Line route until after Columbia, would end up at VCC / Clarke. The end of a western extension to Arbutus would be the end points for both the Evergreen Line and Millenium Line.

But we know that ridership from Expo stations past Lougheed doesn't warrant running those Millennium trains past Production Way.

As mentioned in previous posts it's also improved from an operational standpoint because the line won't be impacted when the various pieces of Expo line decide to die for an afternoon.

The majority of traffic on the hypothetical extension down towards UBC will be in the Commercial-Broadway to UBC segment, you're kidding yourself if they're going to take the people at LaFarge Lake/Douglas into account when planning the train turnbacks and frequencies.

As since you haven't managed to correct your misspellings during the duration of the thread despite comments, here's some easily copy-pastable text you can use when you post.

Millennium
VCC/Clark

[rsxstock]

they should just name all the lines by a number and then if it splits, call it 2a and 2b :/

[Jebby]

Should be:

Expo Line
Waterfront -> King George
Waterfront -> Lougheed/Production

Millenium Line
Lafarge -> VCC (eventually UBC)

Evergreen Line
Not used because it's a stupid name

[WarrenC12]

I'd argue Millenium line is a worse name. Maybe they can just call it "Y2K".

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by dpogue

Adding Evergreen Line to that, you're now trying to keep Millennium Line trains interlined with two separate lines (Evergreen and Expo), and any delays anywhere will cause a hold across the system.

If they run Evergreen Line independently with no interlining, it could keep operating regardless of delays to Expo Line trains.

Interlining isn't a big deal tbh, and it has been done at many cities around the world, often with much more extensive coverage. A very good example is San Francisco's BART.

https://www.bart.gov/stations


All BART trains travel the same set of tracks within San Francisco and Daly City, but once they cross the Bay Bridge onto Oakland, or even go south of San Bruno within the peninsula, they branch out. One goes to Richmond (SF suburb), the other goes to Freemont, a third goes to Pittsburg (SF suburb) and a fourth goes to Dublin (SF suburb). Then there is either SFO or Millbrae

So the announcer would pinpoint which trains are going by saying the end destination, say "to Pittsburg" or "to Daly City", or "to Freemont" or to "Millbrae". Passengers then board whatever train that travels to their destination station. If the destination station overlaps (i.e. Montgomery, Daly City), then more choices of trains. If its a unique station (i.e. SFO, Millbrae, Castro Valley), then wait for the right train to board.

And even prior to the SFO / Millbrae extension, some BART trains just stops at Daly City. But depending on the time of day (aka demand), there would be train coverage all the way. I don't see why it would be difficult to implement a similar system here. Even the "Milllenium Line" can be extended when the demand warrants it, likely once the leg is extended to Arbutus, or even during rush hour or special events.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

...

The issue here is the fact that due to the infinite wisdom of Translink, they decided to halt the current Millenium Line to stop at either Production or Lougheed Town Centre at 2016.

...
Makes sense?

Well, here's an excerpt from the 2008 ridership study that recommended the "Break at CO" option -
i.e. the Millennium Line becoming a shuttle between Lougheed and Columbia - BUT - this can't be implemented without the construction of a third platform and siding at Columbia to prevent interference with the Expo mainline.

Running the M-Line as-is but terminating at Lougheed or Production -the "Split-Tail" option - is probably a stop-gap measure until a third platform can be built at Columbia.

Note that the "Double Coordinated" routing was rejected and would require coordination of both Evergreen and Expo Lines in order to maintain desired headways.

It doesn't appear that the names of the lines was a factor in the ridership / service study.





Note that no "Double Coordinated" scenarios were favoured (shaded options).

[a very long weekend]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Interlining isn't a big deal tbh, and it has been done at many cities around the world, often with much more extensive coverage. A very good example is San Francisco's BART.

https://www.bart.gov/stations

it's a minor additional point, but there's a tension between this sort of thinking and the line "branding" that people within vancouver's metro and translink seem very keen on. as you rightly say, the sf bay area lines don't have designations beyond destination, like they're colored but people don't even think about colors, it's all about the termini.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Well, here's an excerpt from the 2008 ridership study that recommended the "Break at CO" option -
i.e. the Millennium Line becoming a shuttle between Lougheed and Columbia - BUT - this can't be implemented without the construction of a third platform and siding at Columbia to prevent interference with the Expo mainline.

Running the M-Line as-is but terminating at Lougheed or Production -the "Split-Tail" option - is probably a stop-gap measure until a third platform can be built at Columbia.

Note that the "Double Coordinated" routing was rejected and would require coordination of both Evergreen and Expo Lines in order to maintain desired headways.

It doesn't appear that the names of the lines was a factor in the ridership / service study.

>snip<

I was just saying this morning that if Translink could make Columbia - Lougheed a shuttle, then Expo (Waterfront - King George) and Millen-vergreen (VCC to Douglas) would be run as separate & independant lines.

Just need to get some $$$ to build a new terminal track at Columbia

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I was just saying this morning that if Translink could make Columbia - Lougheed a shuttle, then Expo (Waterfront - King George) and Millen-vergreen (VCC to Douglas) would be run as separate & independant lines.

Just need to get some $$$ to build a new terminal track at Columbia

[red-paladin]

Does anyone know when the Evergreen Line related upgrades to Commercial Broadway will start construction? I know this is more related to the Station upgrade thread, but the reason I am asking in here is, it doesn't seem they have very much time to have Commercial Broadway complete by the opening day of the Evergreen Line does it?