Sports in Canadian culture

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

*Major Indoor Soccer League? Awesome! Bring that back.

.

I recall the MISL was really popular. I think it might have thrived when the U.S. did not have a true on-field pro soccer league.

[esquire]

^ MISL sort of bridged the gap between the NASL and MLS. I don't think it was all that popular, though... maybe at its peak it was around where Arena Football is now? (Which is about right considering that both are basically gadget variations on the respective traditional outdoor sports.)

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by esquire

It is frustrating that the top-tier Canadian cities that should form the foundation of a domestic league would rather be bit players in the American domestic league instead.

You can't really have a top-flight domestic league when you're missing the country's three largest cities. Canadian soccer can't get to the next level without having the basic infrastructure that even the most backwards impoverished developing nations have: a professional domestic league.

I think after MLS increases its salary cap later this year and the quality of the players increases, we could see all the domestic MLS teams field Academy teams made up of reserve players, playing in the NASL/CSA/CFL league. Imagine that, 7 NASL-Canada teams + 3 MLS-Academy teams in a 10 team national league.

As it is, I noticed many Toronto FC fans watching Wilmington Hammerheads and Ottawa Fury games to watch the development of their reserve and TFC-Academy players.

If Toronto ever gets an NFL team, we could see a similar arrangement, and sharing of the stadium. The Argos playing in the national league with the reserves and other prospects while the big budget players play in the NFL affiliate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ MISL sort of bridged the gap between the NASL and MLS. I don't think it was all that popular, though... maybe at its peak it was around where Arena Football is now? (Which is about right considering that both are basically gadget variations on the respective traditional outdoor sports.)

I think MISL got positive because it appeared to be viable at a time was on-field pro soccer was not.

It at least kept the pro soccer flame alive.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I think after MLS increases its salary cap later this year and the quality of the players increases, we could see all the domestic MLS teams field Academy teams made up of reserve players, playing in the NASL/CSA/CFL league. Imagine that, 7 NASL-Canada teams + 3 MLS-Academy teams in a 10 team national league.

As it is, iI noticed many Toronto FC fans watching Wilmington Hammerheads and Ottawa Fury games to watch the development of their reserve and TFC-Academy players.

If Toronto ever gets an NFL team, we could see a similar arrangement, and sharing the stadium. The Argos playing in the national league with the reserves and other prospects while the big budget players play in the NFL affiliate.

This type of arrangement would really be the best of both worlds, but it would require Toronto to get over its "if it's not American it's garbage" attitude and actually support domestic leagues in soccer and football.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by esquire

This type of arrangement would really be the best of both worlds, but it would require Toronto to get over its "if it's not American it's garbage" attitude and actually support domestic leagues in soccer and football.

Lack of support for the Argos shouldn't be misinterpreted as wannabe-Americanism. Not interested in getting into this debate again but there is demand for local rivalries, regional rivalries and international rivalries in every city. People don't support the Argos for various reasons, I guarantee you a national soccer league will get massive support here if there's a local team to root for such as a TFC Academy affiliate.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by esquire

This type of arrangement would really be the best of both worlds, but it would require Toronto to get over its "if it's not American it's garbage" attitude and actually support domestic leagues in soccer and football.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Yea, I'm not going to touch his ignorant comment either.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Lack of support for the Argos shouldn't be misinterpreted as wannabe-Americanism.

Agree, but the real reason isn't all that flattering either.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Agree, but the real reason isn't all that flattering either.

Let's be honest here, nobody knows with any degree of certainty why the Argos are flopping in Toronto. One can only collate various reasons provided by Toronto sports fans and come to general assumptions and educated guesses. Sometimes it comes across like CFL fans want someone to blame for the lack of support for the Argos, such as "those damn immigrants" and "wannabe Americans" instead of poor marketing or bad strategic decisions by the league, etc.
I say this as someone who wants the league to succeed, and as someone who immigrated to this country and played Canadian football in both elementary school and highschool, winning an award in my senior high team, yet I'm not motivated to watch CFL games other than the occasional Grey Cup. I still want the best for all quality leagues in this country including the CFL. I personally feel that the Argos can't survive in this city which uniquely has more sports watching options than any other city in the country without making major marketing and strategic changes.

Its not 1873 anymore, neither is it 1973, this city has grown tremendously in population, dynamism and options. In this hyper competitive environment, its not sufficient to have the same branding and dare i say it name, if other factors are also working against you. One of the reasons the Maple Leafs is so successful here despite a crappy track record is that not only does it have deep roots here like Argos, but it is also in a league which allows it to both maintain pan-Canadian rivalries with all major Canadian teams but also maintain rivalries with larger cities via the US-based teams. Its branding is also attractive and appropriate for the city (Maple Leafs). I'm willing to bet if it was still called the Toronto St. Patrick's it would lose some of its fan base.

Now, the Argos have a major advantage over some of the other teams in the Toronto area in that they have many more years of tradition and the team is doing well within the league on the field. Its limitations are that the rivalries it allows for are limited to within Canada, the branding hasn't changed with the times (colour scheme is not attractive and logo is outdated compared to the other teams in the city (granted, teams like the Raptors have similar branding issues which thankfully now are being addressed), its currently playing out of an unsuitable stadium and missed out on a golden opportunity to secure a York stadium, and the name of the team conjures up images of Greek culture, not something the average Canadian or Torontonian could feel inspired by (the ownership group could still be called the Toronto Argos Group while changing the team name to something more appropriate if this has important heritage value). Granted these factors in and of themselves are nothing major, but taken together within the context of this singularly hyper competitive entertainment environment it does make for a team that is not evolving or adapting in a city that is always changing and growing. In such an environment no sports team or entertainment option can rest on its laurels, but to the victor goes all the spoils! The Argos have great potential here, but tough choices must be made.

EDIT: In addition, if Toronto brings an NFL team to the city, I believe the Argos stand to gain more than just a large shared stadium, as the affiliated reserve/academy team. Along with more cross promotion (such as Toronto FC's fans watching the Wilmington Hammerheads affiliates and Ottawa Fury due to the TFC reserve players), they would allow fans to maintain their national rivalries while watching the NFL affiliate for rivalries with other large regional rivals.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Its limitations are that the rivalries it allows for are limited to within Canada

I'm not accusing you, and I know you didn't mean this, but statements like this are what fuels the American wannabe stereotype. What's wrong with playing only Canadian teams?

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm not accusing you, and I know you didn't mean this, but statements like this are what fuels the American wannabe stereotype. What's wrong with playing only Canadian teams?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing only Canadian teams. There's enough fan support for hockey and soccer in Toronto to fuel interest in a Canada only league for each. But as previously stated, given the availability of so many other sporting and entertainment options in almost every league, every competitive advantage adds to a team or leagues "stickiness" with the population. When you're the 3rd or 4th most popular spectator sport in a city and have already had marketing and stadium problems to begin with, any factor which limits your popularity even incrementally will reduce your chances of survival. The Argos could survive without having any sort of local NFL affiliation if it was on point with its marketing, budget, branding and stadium, but its failing in all of them so Canada only rivalries and on field success aren't sufficient when other teams in this competitive entertainment environment are hitting most of the right notes. People will vote with their feet.

P.S. Apologies for all the grammatical errors in the last couple posts as I'm typing this on my phone lol..

[Steveston]

I'm not disputing any of the points made as to why the Argos aren't popular.

What baffles me more than anything is that, in a metro area with over 5.5 million people, the Argos can't find 30,000 people who are willing to shell out money to watch the CFL?

To me, that's purely a marketing issue. There must be dozens of community football leagues, high school teams and adult touch football leagues where the Argos can conduct some meaningful community outreach and connect to the grassroots of football in the area.

There must be dozens of businesses who can't afford the corporate sponsorship levels required to have a presence at Leafs, Raptors or Jays games, but can do so at Argo games.

Generally speaking, the CFL produces an entertaining product. It has deep roots in Canada. It generates strong rivalries across the country. It should be a marketable product in the nation's largest city.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing only Canadian teams. There's enough fan support for hockey and soccer in Toronto to fuel interest in a Canada only league for each. But as previously stated, given the availability of so many other sporting and entertainment options in almost every league, every competitive advantage adds to a team or leagues "stickiness" with the population. When you're the 3rd or 4th most popular spectator sport in a city and have already had marketing and stadium problems to begin with, any factor which limits your popularity even incrementally will reduce your chances of survival. The Argos could survive without having any sort of local NFL affiliation if it was on point with its marketing, budget, branding and stadium, but its failing in all of them so Canada only rivalries and on field success aren't sufficient when other teams in this competitive entertainment environment are hitting most of the right notes. People will vote with their feet.

P.S. Apologies for all the grammatical errors in the last couple posts as I'm typing this on my phone lol..

I guess it's just interesting to me that having only Canadian rivalries could be seen as a weakness. I know for me, I always enjoy watching the Canucks play the Maple Leafs more than any other team. But in general I'd much rather see them play Canadian teams than even our rivals. Because outside of hockey, I don't think about San Jose or Boston. But I do about the rest of Canada.

Originally Posted by Steveston

I'm not disputing any of the points made as to why the Argos aren't popular.

What baffles me more than anything is that, in a metro area with over 5.5 million people, the Argos can't find 30,000 people who are willing to shell out money to watch the CFL?

To me, that's purely a marketing issue. There must be dozens of community football leagues, high school teams and adult touch football leagues where the Argos can conduct some meaningful community outreach and connect to the grassroots of football in the area.

There must be dozens of businesses who can't afford the corporate sponsorship levels required to have a presence at Leafs, Raptors or Jays games, but can do so at Argo games.

Generally speaking, the CFL produces an entertaining product. It has deep roots in Canada. It generates strong rivalries across the country. It should be a marketable product in the nation's largest city.

Definitely. With so many people living in the city, it's remarkable how hard it is for them to get people to the games. I still think that eventually the Argonauts will start selling out, even if they won't be a big deal in the city, just based on the sheer size of Toronto. But the Argonauts can't just wait around for it to happen.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Steveston

I'm not disputing any of the points made as to why the Argos aren't popular.

What baffles me more than anything is that, in a metro area with over 5.5 million people, the Argos can't find 30,000 people who are willing to shell out money to watch the CFL?

To me, that's purely a marketing issue. There must be dozens of community football leagues, high school teams and adult touch football leagues where the Argos can conduct some meaningful community outreach and connect to the grassroots of football in the area.

There must be dozens of businesses who can't afford the corporate sponsorship levels required to have a presence at Leafs, Raptors or Jays games, but can do so at Argo games.

Generally speaking, the CFL produces an entertaining product. It has deep roots in Canada. It generates strong rivalries across the country. It should be a marketable product in the nation's largest city.

Yes, its definitely a marketing travesty, hopefully MLSE takes them over eventually, rebrands and massively promotes the team.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by mattgrande

CSA, CFL and NASL to launch Canadian league



Source: http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/in...n-league-r4701

I'm pretty stoked about this idea.

That's pretty sweet, Canada is becoming a soccer powerhouse.


Seriously qualifying for the world cup might be a given if we have a steady league to develop players.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by esquire

It is frustrating that the top-tier Canadian cities that should form the foundation of a domestic league would rather be bit players in the American domestic league instead.

You can't really have a top-flight domestic league when you're missing the country's three largest cities. Canadian soccer can't get to the next level without having the basic infrastructure that even the most backwards impoverished developing nations have: a professional domestic league.

Even in the best of nations the best players flee for bigger markets.

Ironically England can barely field a national team, yet has the best clubs going.

Even more ironic, Europeans would kill for a continental league like ours.

Most national leagues are dominated by 2-3 teams, that have financial ability way beyond the rest. Its a curse of European soccer if we can avoid it in north America itd be a true blessing. Besides Canada is very well represented in the league, even better so I think than in hockey.

Anyhow using CFL stadiums would be a disaster for MLS, the whole business model is based on owning the means of production(the stadium).

The black sheep in America are those still using football stadiums. Its a major factor on who is excepted into the mls.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ MISL sort of bridged the gap between the NASL and MLS. I don't think it was all that popular, though... maybe at its peak it was around where Arena Football is now? (Which is about right considering that both are basically gadget variations on the respective traditional outdoor sports.)

Indoor is totally different game, its like comparing Aussie rules football with gridiron. I doubt many major players would be able to truly crossover in either direction. Sadly indoor is a better game for American audiences, faster far more goals, much smaller pitch.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Steveston

I'm not disputing any of the points made as to why the Argos aren't popular.

What baffles me more than anything is that, in a metro area with over 5.5 million people, the Argos can't find 30,000 people who are willing to shell out money to watch the CFL?

To me, that's purely a marketing issue. There must be dozens of community football leagues, high school teams and adult touch football leagues where the Argos can conduct some meaningful community outreach and connect to the grassroots of football in the area.

There must be dozens of businesses who can't afford the corporate sponsorship levels required to have a presence at Leafs, Raptors or Jays games, but can do so at Argo games.

Generally speaking, the CFL produces an entertaining product. It has deep roots in Canada. It generates strong rivalries across the country. It should be a marketable product in the nation's largest city.

its called the blue jays.

This is such an absurd scenario.

Why would I spend twice as much money, to goto an argos game. So I can watch my team play some city that isn't on my radar.
For just half the money, I goto a BJs game whenever I want at the exact same stadium and be part of something huge. And watch them play the YANKEES!!!

Its not an American thing, the CFL is not a major league, trying to pretend it is one is where the problem starts.

To get popularity in Toronto you have to start with the fact that it isn't a major league and avoid playing in the skydome.

Relocate the league to the suburbs York u, etobicoke whatever, and add expansion team to Mississauga Vaughn or Markham. Drum up the idea that its a regional league representing all of Canada.

If the roles were reversed and Vancouver was alone with regina youd have the same problem. The Argos are isolated culturally and geographically.

The idea that people are against the CFL isn't the point, its just were not willing to accept it on terms that are foreign.

Ottawa is a step forward but an expansion team to the suburbs is a must, and getting argos out of downtown is a major priority. Theres just way too much competition downtown. There Lacrosse, Soccer, The blue Jays, the CSL, College football(which is just as relevant to a regionalist), and 101 other things.

[esquire]

^ Leafs fans sure don't seem to have trouble getting jacked up for games against Ottawa or Montreal... why is it an issue when it comes to football?