Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by Makid

I should say that FanX is going strong. A group of us went during lunch. The lines were really long. All lines were inside the exhibit area this time which did help to make them faster than Comic Con.

The convention center felt a lot busier than any other convention and it was only the first few hours of the event. I would expect it to be twice as busy at least tomorrow.

I would estimate that there were about 10,000 people at least walking around in the exhibit space. When we left, there were large crowds heading towards the convention center with very few people actually leaving. So I would expect it to be even busier in the evening hours.

Sorry, I don't really have many pictures from today. If I go over tomorrow or Saturday, I will grab some photos to share.

Yeah, I'm there with my LEGO group...was there for a few hours today, then all day Friday, most of the day Saturday. It's very busy, and using the whole Salt Palace gives some necessary breathing room that wasn't there last year.

It's fun. In the nerdiest/geekiest way possible.

[UTPlanner]

Keep in mind that city staff only makes a recommendation to the Planning Commission. They can certainly follow that recommendation or go in their own direction.

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

It's getting there, but there is still a couple of huge gaps once you leave Provo before you reach Payson.


I think one thing that may increase the Utah County commuters to SL County, during the next census is the addition of Front Runner to Provo. I really think we'll continue to see a major push for office growth in downtown SLC and that will allow many Utah County residents to continue to live in Happy Valley, and commute, via FrontRunner, to downtown SLC.

Or even better, why not live AND work in Salt Lake City? It's great if they use FrontRunner, but if you're going to take that much effort, why not just move to Salt Lake? That's still a very long commute, even if it is less stressful and cheaper - and of course more environmentally friendly - than driving.

[Orlando]

I like the look of 151, but I can understand the city's objection. That glass extended parapet look is nice and clean, but ya, we already have two and now 3 buildings with that. I read the email in the link, and I like how the Architect, Dave Dixon, was elaborating on how different the revised parapet is, but the new rendering of the revised design barely shows any difference. I think what needs to happen, is that the parapet line needs to show some variation vertically. Parhaps the solution is to taper the parapet line so it looks like the building is jutting to one corner and maybe to another also. That way they can keep their similar glass parapet with little change other than the parapet varies in height. It could be really dramatic, especially with those carved corners and such.

One thing I wish the city would enforce, is the height limits at midblock. This tower really should have been proposed on the Tower 8 lot.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by jedikermit

Yeah, I'm there with my LEGO group...was there for a few hours today, then all day Friday, most of the day Saturday. It's very busy, and using the whole Salt Palace gives some necessary breathing room that wasn't there last year.

It's fun. In the nerdiest/geekiest way possible.

I took a picture of the Lego group area. I may have captured you in the image.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by utenation

And I can find 10 out of 20 people in my neighborhood that either don't fill out Census data at all or give specific detail.. I'm not sure how accurate year 2000 census data is for this discussion. And sure, one guy's opinion is just that but when my livihood was based on knowing the area, I feel confident and stand behind what I said. I don't disagree with everything you said and my original point was population sprawl between SL county and Utah County and SL and Davis county, not why or why not these areas are counted into our MSA.

Truly the only way to know better current data is to poll enough of the folks we're talking about.

If you read most my post, you'd see the data I posted was from a span of 2007-2011. It's not irrelevant and should certainly be taken more seriously as fact than just random encounters.

[Comrade]

Downtown used to have a lot of people before the suburbs killed it.

[asies1981]

I don't know if anyone has seen the new report by the Utah Foundation called "A Snapshot of 2050" The population estimates are the same numbers used by the Governor's office of management and budget, if you look at those figures the state is projected to grow to around 5.5 million by 2050 with SLC and Utah counties growing by 600,000 and 700,000 respectively with Weber and Davis contributing another 300,000 or so to the Wasatch Front population. I think most of these estimated are pretty spot on, but I hope SLC's number is seriously under estimated. With nearly 2 million extra residents along the Wasatch Front, SLC is only estimated to have 233,000 people. Demographics are changing across the country and millennials are preferring downtown and urban centers in large numbers and if future generations continue the trend I think SLC will see more than 40,000 new residents over the next 36 years. The report indicates the need for more centralized development, but I think there are undervaluing SLC. Imagine a state with nearly 6 million people whose largest city is just over 200,000? I just hope that these estimates are wrong and that SLC is a lot more urban in 2050 than this report suggests.

[airhero]

I don't think Salt Lake's population estimate is that far off. I don't see it growing much more than that unless there's an explosion of urban living, and I'm not seeing that. An increase? Yes. Explosion? No.
I do, however, think the estimate for some cities are greatly overestimated. Growth in communities like Eagle Mountain and Saratoga Springs has slowed considerably in the past few years and it hasn't recovered much. I highly doubt they'll have populations of over 100,000. St. George too. It's not at all growing like it was and will not be bigger in population than Salt Lake like this suggests. You can't fit 250,000 people in those boundaries. The only way that could even be possible would be if St. George became a LOT more urban, and St. George isn't exactly a place for urban living. I may be wrong but only time will tell.

[asies1981]

The Atlantic Cities and the National Journal are spotlighting SLC this week, there are some good articles on important issues here.

[Future Mayor]

As UT Planner said, the planning staff recommended denial, but that doesn't mean the PC will deny it. While it does look similar it does appear to have some uniqueness to it. It appears that there is a sort of exoskeleton on the edge and the muted glass is behind that, which is different than 222 or 111.

As the planning documents stated, if Boyer is denied they can build up to 100', if they wanted to build higher, which apparently there is a demand for, they would have to submit a new application, and obviously a new design for the roof line. I like the idea of simply altering the area of the parapet that lights up or looks like the parapet, with a variety of angles.

Originally Posted by Orlando

One thing I wish the city would enforce, is the height limits at midblock. This tower really should have been proposed on the Tower 8 lot.

I disagree with you on this one. I like have mid-block buildings with heights over 100'. I think it gives a bit more variety to the shape of the skyline and the overall streetscape. I think it's appropriate in some places, such as 151, because the building on the corners north and south, particularly the Federal building to the north, aren't all that high and I don't really see either of them going away anytime soon, so why not add some height and density to that block face at mid-block.

If they city fully enforced the mid-block height limits we wouldn't have The Regent and the future Cascade. Case in point, I think the Regent really ads some great height and density to the block face because the two corners are much shorter, and aren't going anywhere anytime soon.The same could be said about the former DesNews building right across the street. Since the Federal Reserve bank is on that same block face, that block wouldn't be as utilized if the Des News building was limited to the 100' height.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by asies1981

I don't know if anyone has seen the new report by the Utah Foundation called "A Snapshot of 2050" The population estimates are the same numbers used by the Governor's office of management and budget, if you look at those figures the state is projected to grow to around 5.5 million by 2050 with SLC and Utah counties growing by 600,000 and 700,000 respectively with Weber and Davis contributing another 300,000 or so to the Wasatch Front population. I think most of these estimated are pretty spot on, but I hope SLC's number is seriously under estimated. With nearly 2 million extra residents along the Wasatch Front, SLC is only estimated to have 233,000 people. Demographics are changing across the country and millennials are preferring downtown and urban centers in large numbers and if future generations continue the trend I think SLC will see more than 40,000 new residents over the next 36 years. The report indicates the need for more centralized development, but I think there are undervaluing SLC. Imagine a state with nearly 6 million people whose largest city is just over 200,000? I just hope that these estimates are wrong and that SLC is a lot more urban in 2050 than this report suggests.

I don't see much of the growth happening in Eagle Mountain and the Saratoga Springs without a full fledged limited access highway going through Eagle Mountain and connecting to the I-15 south of Utah Lake.

Without the highway, traffic and travel time is going to stop any further growth from happening in only the next few years, let alone 36 years.

I also think water is a resource that is going to limit expansion and growth in areas such as Eagle Mountain and Tooele County. It was only a few years ago that reports came out that Tooele County was nearly at its maximum water share and it would only be able to grow by maybe 15% to 20% total without needing to secure more water rights.

I don't know how much water rights Eagle Mountain has or even Saratoga Springs but I doubt it is enough to support the populations listed.

As for SLC population numbers, I think if the population counts for the state are correct and we factor in commute times, traffic and water issues. I think at least 2/3 of the population numbers for Tooele County would be added to Salt Lake County and Davis County. Then 2/3 of increase for Saratoga Springs and Eagle Mountain would be added to be split with 60% to the urban corridor in Utah County (Lehi, Alpine, AF, Orem, Provo, etc.) and 40% being in SL County and possibly Davis County depending on employment locations.

The downside is that it would drop the growth in Utah County and Tooele County downward accordingly but also increase SL County and Davis County populations.

36 years is really hard to project outwards on because they are using growth rates from the past to justify them going forward and that can't be the case because of the factors stated previously.

I do think that Salt Lake City will see growth and I would expect it to be at least 40,000 in the next 36 years. With the shift in demographics, and the return to Urban Living that is occurring, I wouldn't be surprise to see it increase by 60,000 in the next 36 years.

Now of course, this could all be moot as an HQ relocation to SLC, oil and gas costs dramatically increase or a large earthquake happens in California and people relocate en mass, or Utah could enact green belts. In any of these situations we could see a dramatic change to city populations in SL, Davis, Weber and Utah Counties. If it happened sooner, it would be along existing transit lines which would reduce the projected growth in other areas as well as expedite transit expansion.

Or again, Yellowstone could have a mega eruption and we could be in no mans land for 100+ years or so.

I think that a 5 to 10 year projection is in the safe range when projecting actual populations in cities and municipalities. 10+ year projects are okay for general population counts for Counties and State. Anything beyond 20 years should never list city population estimates as there are too many factors that could change them that aren't known now.

[wrendog]

Most of Eagle Mountain's growth seems to be in the Ranches area, not in original Eagle mountain. From there, the MVC will provide limited access freeway to I-15. City Center Eagle Mountain isn't doing much right now. That place is a hole.

That said, yeah, the growth will slow down, but EM/SS will still be up there in population. I say 150,000 between the two.

[Comrade]

Salt Lake's problem continues to be its limited borders. If the city does develop the area out by the airport, which I still believe is unlikely, the population could double within years and push 400,000. But, like I said, I don't see that as a likely path. The way for SLC to expand its population greatly is to build denser communities. We're doing that. But even then, we're still limited - unless Salt Lake really decides to go vertical.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I like the look of 151, but I can understand the city's objection. That glass extended parapet look is nice and clean, but ya, we already have two and now 3 buildings with that. I read the email in the link, and I like how the Architect, Dave Dixon, was elaborating on how different the revised parapet is, but the new rendering of the revised design barely shows any difference. I think what needs to happen, is that the parapet line needs to show some variation vertically. Parhaps the solution is to taper the parapet line so it looks like the building is jutting to one corner and maybe to another also. That way they can keep their similar glass parapet with little change other than the parapet varies in height. It could be really dramatic, especially with those carved corners and such.

One thing I wish the city would enforce, is the height limits at midblock. This tower really should have been proposed on the Tower 8 lot.

[IMG]Capture by brandino74, on Flickr[/IMG]

The red outline is my suggestion of how to make the glass parapet different from the flat glass parapets of 111, 222, and the new Federal Courthouse. The angles in the façade work well with the sloping of the glass parapet I am suggesting in red.

[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by Makid

I took a picture of the Lego group area. I may have captured you in the image.

I'm the handsome one.

It's kind of a low bar.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by Comrade

If you read most my post, you'd see the data I posted was from a span of 2007-2011. It's not irrelevant and should certainly be taken more seriously as fact than just random encounters.

Oh, I read your survey too. I also read wasatch one's report that has data from the last 2 years as well. Which clearly shows major Utah companies moving or adding office space in Lehi from Provo to capture a cross county workforce. Why else move from the heart of Utah county to northern Utah county? That article backs up what I said 100%. This article was very recent information. I'm not even arguing %'s. But my guess is, it's much higher than 2007-2011 with the recent boom in Lehi. If you want to stand behind outdated info, fine. I mean, why would companies invest billions in infrastructure into northern Utah county if their only workforce was in Provo and the like?

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by utenation

Oh, I read your survey too. I also read wasatch one's report that has data from the last 2 years as well. Which clearly shows major Utah companies moving or adding office space in Lehi from Provo to capture a cross county workforce. Why else move from the heart of Utah county to northern Utah county? That article backs up what I said 100%. This article was very recent information. I'm not even arguing %'s. But my guess is, it's much higher than 2007-2011 with the recent boom in Lehi. If you want to stand behind outdated info, fine. I mean, why would companies invest billions in infrastructure into northern Utah county if their only workforce was in Provo and the like?

Maybe because they see the potential? No one is debating the potential here. That area is growing, and within ten years, the percentage of inter-county travel will absolutely trump what it is currently. However, anecdotal data is limited in its scope - legitimate data is not. We'll see where that growth is when the next estimates come out. But in 2011, which was only three years ago, the percentage was only 17%. In another five years, it'll certainly be higher (no one is arguing that). Right now, though, it's still about average for a Utah county - especially compared to Davis, which has nearly half its residents traveling into Salt Lake County. This is a big reason why Utah County has never been apart of the Salt Lake Metro.

My guess is that Davis County is added next - not Utah County. In 20 years, though? I'm sure the borders will be even less clear between Salt Lake and Utah County.

[ajiuO]

They announced durring Patrick Stewart that fanx had surpassed 100k and is now currently the biggest in the country.. Will be interesting to see actual numbers.

They have way more space then last year... But it still seemed even more crowed.. I think with theese kind if numbers.. We can start steeling big announcements from sandiago... This OS only our second comicon..

[AllOutOfBubbleGum]

San Diego may never lose their ComiCon but you hit on a big point. That they might start having big reviles in SLC with the turn outs they have had.

I work right by the SP and from day one I noticed more people the first few days then the fall event. This Saturday seemed less crazy as last too and some of that has to do with people were prepared for this one both organizers and fans.

Heil all Nerds