Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[UTPlanner]

The golf course would not have to be sold for the property to be utilized as an expanded zoo. Both the Hogle Zoo and the Bonneville Golf Course are owned by Salt Lake City. The Administration would just have to make the decision that an expanded zoo is a better use of that property. They would also have to listen to the cries of very wealthy East Bench residents.

[ToysNoiz]

Originally Posted by Comrade

All right. I know I constantly bemoaned people calling SLC a 'major' U.S. city, however, there is no reason to clump us with some of those cities - like Eugene, Charleston, Fort Collins and Grand Rapids. Salt Lake is far and away bigger than those communities.

I noticed that, too. It was annoying. Grand Rapids? Seriously? Why is that on the list?

SLC is a larger mid-sized city.

[Future Mayor]

In regards to the mid-size city. I always wonder if it's better to big the biggest city in the Mid-Size category or be one of the smallest cities in the Big-City category.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by ToysNoiz

I noticed that, too. It was annoying. Grand Rapids? Seriously? Why is that on the list?

SLC is a larger mid-sized city.

Are you suggesting that Grand Rapids is also too big to be on the list? I would agree with you in that case. Grand Rapids is a lot bigger than most people think. MSA population is 1,016,653. Just behind, well, SLC.

[Comrade]

I'd put Salt Lake City and Providence on the same level and both slightly above Grand Rapids - while surely well above a place like Eugene, Oregon (metro: 351,715).

[utenation]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I'd put Salt Lake City and Providence on the same level and both slightly above Grand Rapids - while surely well above a place like Eugene, Oregon (metro: 351,715).

I was glad to see SLC ranked high-well in any national media source "most exciting" city survey considering the bad rap we get here sometimes..

We see plenty of "fit" places and "good economy" rankings but rarely a fun place..

That said, I agree, some of these places are not in the same ballpark as SLC for size.. It would have been nice if they defined "Mid Size City" a bit more.

I would certainly rank SLC as a mid size city in the USA but others no... This ranking might at least get a few more doubters to check out SLC..

[asies1981]

Originally Posted by wrendog

Just another example of someone not understanding the difference between city size and metro size.

Most of the lists by Real Estates blogs or websites just look at city population, which in this case puts SLC in the group it is in on this list. I am grateful that that websites like The Atlantic Cities always focus on metro size and therefore always looks at SLC through the larger (over a million plus etc) lens. But I feel that even SLC metro size gets the short end of the stick. I grew up in Bountiful and I can tell you that Bountiful has no economic connections to Ogden. Nearly everyone in Bountiful works in SLC, yet Bountiful is part of the Ogden metro, lol. Ironically even a city called North Salt Lake is put in the Ogden metro, lol.

[AllOutOfBubbleGum]

Originally Posted by UTPlanner

The golf course would not have to be sold for the property to be utilized as an expanded zoo. Both the Hogle Zoo and the Bonneville Golf Course are owned by Salt Lake City. The Administration would just have to make the decision that an expanded zoo is a better use of that property. They would also have to listen to the cries of very wealthy East Bench residents.

From some interviews I was a part of with the Golf Pros for Salt Lake City, Wingpoint is the money maker for all the other courses. With out Wingpoint they would be operating in the red. A lot of that had to do with Wingpoint not paying market value for the land for so many years. With that ending last year all the City courses are in a budget pinch.

Now, down the road SLC Airport could expand and end Wingpoints footprint. If the city courses lose the cash cow, it is not out of the question that the City would consider selling a course or two. Bonneville would be the first one considered. Even if you convert part of it over into the zoo there's still plenty of land to make money off of for large upscale houses. But no one told me that the City would sale, I'm just looking at "what if's."

See what Orem did to Cascade Golf course, that can give you an idea of what could happen.

Remember I'm not saying this will happen just looking at the cards at hand.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by asies1981

Most of the lists by Real Estates blogs or websites just look at city population, which in this case puts SLC in the group it is in on this list. I am grateful that that websites like The Atlantic Cities always focus on metro size and therefore always looks at SLC through the larger (over a million plus etc) lens. But I feel that even SLC metro size gets the short end of the stick. I grew up in Bountiful and I can tell you that Bountiful has no economic connections to Ogden. Nearly everyone in Bountiful works in SLC, yet Bountiful is part of the Ogden metro, lol. Ironically even a city called North Salt Lake is put in the Ogden metro, lol.

Well, 10 years ago, SLC metro included all of the Ogden metro. If the census ever combines the two again, SLC metro will jump from from 48th to 36th biggest metro in the country.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by asies1981

I grew up in Bountiful and I can tell you that Bountiful has no economic connections to Ogden. Nearly everyone in Bountiful works in SLC, yet Bountiful is part of the Ogden metro, lol. Ironically even a city called North Salt Lake is put in the Ogden metro, lol.

Using the eye test, the Wasatch Front is just one giant blob without clear separation these days. Would someone new that moved here really know where Lehi ends and Draper begins? Or where SLC ends and Bounitful begins?

[Wasatch_One]

Originally Posted by wrendog

Well, 10 years ago, SLC metro included all of the Ogden metro. If the census ever combines the two again, SLC metro will jump from from 48th to 36th biggest metro in the country.

Combined Statistical Areas are and even better indicator of city size than Metro/MSA designations.

SLC was just added to the Census' CSA list (from what I can tell?) and ranks 24th largest in the US. We will probably surpass Kansas City in the July 2014 census estimate and possibly pass Sacramento CA for 22nd spot within the next 4-5 years (based on current growth rates.) It may be hard to pass Charlotte NC because were growing at close to the same rate (1.65% annually for Char, 1.72%/yr for SLC.)

However, St. Louis and Pittsburgh (19th & 20th currently) aren't far off, especially with their stagnant growth rates of .13% and -0.01% annually. SLC could surpass Pittsburgh within 9-10 yrs and STL within a few years beyond that.

Imagine that, SLC with the 20th largest CSA in the nation by ~2024...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Combined_Statistical_Areas

EDIT: There are a few major metros (Phoenix - 4.4M, San Diego 3.2M, Tampa - 2.8M & San Antonio - 2.2M) that are not included on the CSA list because they are based on a single urban core... so adding to & updating my post above, SLC is currently 27th (being larger than San Antonio, but not Phoenix, SD and Tampa) and would rise to 24th by 2024 passing KC, Sac, Pitt with Tampa & STL not too far off in the distance. Still, not too bad.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by Wasatch_One

However, St. Louis and Pittsburgh (19th & 20th currently) aren't far off, especially with their stagnant growth rates of .13% and -0.01% annually. SLC could surpass Pittsburgh within 9-10 yrs and STL within a few years beyond that.

Imagine that, SLC with the 20th largest CSA in the nation by ~2024...



EDIT: There are a few major metros (Phoenix - 4.4M, San Diego 3.2M, Tampa - 2.8M & San Antonio - 2.2M) that are not included on the CSA list because they are based on a single urban core... so adding to & updating my post above, SLC is currently 27th (being larger than San Antonio, but not Phoenix, SD and Tampa) and would rise to 24th by 2024 passing KC, Sac, Pitt with Tampa & STL not too far off in the distance. Still, not too bad.

Yep, I see some folks getting passed up very soon. I just hope we do it smart in the second driest state in the nation..The Wasatch Front will be a monster in the next 10-15 years. North Carolina is still going strong and the Texas Boys are on fire. But the rust belt seems to be stagnant or dying.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by Wasatch_One

Combined Statistical Areas are and even better indicator of city size than Metro/MSA designations.

SLC was just added to the Census' CSA list (from what I can tell?) and ranks 24th largest in the US. We will probably surpass Kansas City in the July 2014 census estimate and possibly pass Sacramento CA for 22nd spot within the next 4-5 years (based on current growth rates.) It may be hard to pass Charlotte NC because were growing at close to the same rate (1.65% annually for Char, 1.72%/yr for SLC.)

However, St. Louis and Pittsburgh (19th & 20th currently) aren't far off, especially with their stagnant growth rates of .13% and -0.01% annually. SLC could surpass Pittsburgh within 9-10 yrs and STL within a few years beyond that.

Imagine that, SLC with the 20th largest CSA in the nation by ~2024...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Combined_Statistical_Areas

EDIT: There are a few major metros (Phoenix - 4.4M, San Diego 3.2M, Tampa - 2.8M & San Antonio - 2.2M) that are not included on the CSA list because they are based on a single urban core... so adding to & updating my post above, SLC is currently 27th (being larger than San Antonio, but not Phoenix, SD and Tampa) and would rise to 24th by 2024 passing KC, Sac, Pitt with Tampa & STL not too far off in the distance. Still, not too bad.

CSA's seem to never be discussed. When referring to a metro area, MSA is the first to be pulled out, but yes, SLC CSA is pretty big.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by utenation

Using the eye test, the Wasatch Front is just one giant blob without clear separation these days. Would someone new that moved here really know where Lehi ends and Draper begins? Or where SLC ends and Bounitful begins?

It's a population glob, to be sure, but the patterns still define that separation. According to the 2000 Census (outdated, to be sure, but it gives you a good starting point), roughly 18,000 Utah County residents commuted into Salt Lake County to work. That was only 4% of the entire 2000 population. It's a big reason, even today, Utah County still isn't considered part of the Salt Lake Metropolitan area. It still remains very independent of Salt Lake County, even though the two share a border.

Davis County, which has a better relationship with Salt Lake County, though isn't part of the metro, had 33,851 people who commuted to work in Salt Lake back in 2000 - or roughly 14% of their total population. Much higher than Utah County's.

So, there are borders that still characterize each community and it's certainly more defined between Utah County and Salt Lake County. It's going to change, obviously, but right now, I think most people, even new to the area, could tell you when Draper ends and Utah County begins - they're still strikingly different. Now, the difference between Salt Lake County and Davis continues to blur - but even then, you've got a considerable gap and lack of total interaction between the two counties.

It also is possible the natural barriers add to this illusion. If you go into other counties, specifically back east, and parts of California, the county border can literally go right down the middle of a street.

Here's the border between Los Angeles and Orange County.

That really doesn't exist yet in Salt Lake/Utah/Davis County. Even the area between Salt Lake City & North Salt Lake is separated by a swath of vacant land (or a mix of industrial).

I anticipate that to change, but there is still enough of a gap between each county that you can tell when one county ends and another begins.

[asies1981]

Originally Posted by wrendog

CSA's seem to never be discussed. When referring to a metro area, MSA is the first to be pulled out, but yes, SLC CSA is pretty big.

From my knowledge SLC is the only metro area smaller than its urban area. I regularly look at census data (I embrace my nerdiness, lol) and have yet to find another metro area smaller than its urban area like SLC. Even in the Northeast with Philly, NY, DC all close together there are still distinct boundaries even noticeable from I-95. The same could be said about the San Fran/San Jose corridor. Ogden to Payson is continuous. To me the best argument for why Ogden and Provo are really part of the SLC metro is shown by the fact they share the freaking transportation agency, hell the "commuter" train connects both Ogden and Provo to SLC that says something, lol.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by asies1981

From my knowledge SLC is the only metro area smaller than its urban area. I regularly look at census data (I embrace my nerdiness, lol) and have yet to find another metro area smaller than its urban area like SLC. Even in the Northeast with Philly, NY, DC all close together there are still distinct boundaries even noticeable from I-95. The same could be said about the San Fran/San Jose corridor. Ogden to Payson is continuous. To me the best argument for why Ogden and Provo are really part of the SLC metro is shown by the fact they share the freaking transportation agency, hell the "commuter" train connects both Ogden and Provo to SLC that says something, lol.

It's based on numbers. Davis/Utah don't have the inter-county commuting into Salt Lake to warrant being classified as part of the metropolitan (and there are other aspects to it, as well). It might not make sense to you, but it is a blanket definition - so, other cities get the same treatment as Salt Lake.

It has less to do with natural borders and more to do with economic/retail/living borders. Their assumption, based on data, is that most residents in Utah County remain in Utah County, rarely traveling north into Salt Lake County - either for work or play. The fact is, it's probably right. The counties might interact on a transportation level, but, as I pointed out above, a small amount of Utah County residents actually work in Salt Lake County.

I'd wager Davis has a far larger case to be included into Salt Lake's metro than Utah County. Of its working population, 46% actually leave the county - with most probably commuting into Salt Lake County. Utah County is toward the bottom, and below the state average, at only 17%. Salt Lake, not unexpectedly, is only 7% - the third lowest in the state.

[DCRes]

FYI - There is currently a wrecking ball wrecking havoc on the Metro Bldg. I think I may go grab a few pictures.

[StevenF]

Originally Posted by DCRes

FYI - There is currently a wrecking ball wrecking havoc on the Metro Bldg. I think I may go grab a few pictures.

Please do!!

[ToysNoiz]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I'd wager Davis has a far larger case to be included into Salt Lake's metro than Utah County. Of its working population, 46% actually leave the county - with most probably commuting into Salt Lake County. Utah County is toward the bottom, and below the state average, at only 17%. Salt Lake, not unexpectedly, is only 7% - the third lowest in the state.

Agreed. I likey some numbers.

I'd say include Davis, but leave out Weber. I'm still iffy on Utah County, though.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by asies1981

From my knowledge SLC is the only metro area smaller than its urban area. I regularly look at census data (I embrace my nerdiness, lol) and have yet to find another metro area smaller than its urban area like SLC. Even in the Northeast with Philly, NY, DC all close together there are still distinct boundaries even noticeable from I-95. The same could be said about the San Fran/San Jose corridor. Ogden to Payson is continuous. To me the best argument for why Ogden and Provo are really part of the SLC metro is shown by the fact they share the freaking transportation agency, hell the "commuter" train connects both Ogden and Provo to SLC that says something, lol.

It's getting there, but there is still a couple of huge gaps once you leave Provo before you reach Payson.


I think one thing that may increase the Utah County commuters to SL County, during the next census is the addition of Front Runner to Provo. I really think we'll continue to see a major push for office growth in downtown SLC and that will allow many Utah County residents to continue to live in Happy Valley, and commute, via FrontRunner, to downtown SLC.