HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Buildings & Architecture > Completed Project Threads Archive


125 Greenwich Street in the SkyscraperPage Database

Building Data Page   • Comparison Diagram   • New York Skyscraper Diagram

Map Location
New York Projects & Construction Forum

 

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #181  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2013, 3:13 PM
antinimby antinimby is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In syndication
Posts: 2,089
Some blame has to go to the owners, too. The architects are only giving the owners what they ask for, something easy and less costly to build. Nothing is easier or less costly to build than a boxy form.

I'm sure Vinoly can come up with something more creative but what's the point if the owner rejects it ala Extell/Nordstrom with 225 W 57?
     
     
  #182  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2013, 5:42 PM
ILNY ILNY is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
Some blame has to go to the owners, too. The architects are only giving the owners what they ask for, something easy and less costly to build. Nothing is easier or less costly to build than a boxy form.

I'm sure Vinoly can come up with something more creative but what's the point if the owner rejects it ala Extell/Nordstrom with 225 W 57?
Agreed, although I am not able to understand why the owner would not care about aesthetics of centerpiece multibillion dollar building like 225W. How much can they save by building a box?
Or, perhaps they just have a different architectural taste and boxy forms look great in their eyes.
     
     
  #183  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2013, 5:53 PM
antinimby antinimby is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In syndication
Posts: 2,089
Yes, there is a certain amount of truth to that too. I remember Gary Barnett once commented on how he thought his Ariel buildings on the UWS were great looking and how he couldn't understand why the community disliked them.

If you'll remember, the Ariels were pretty awful.
     
     
  #184  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2013, 6:06 PM
antinimby antinimby is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In syndication
Posts: 2,089
And don't forget Stephen Ross and Related wanted to build those awful Stack O' towers before Coach (who presumably have more taste since they are a fashion company afterall) stepped in and asked for a total redesign.

Same thing goes for Trump and many others. We don't even want to go into Sam Chang and McSam. He probably thinks all his buildings are great looking too.
     
     
  #185  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2013, 8:11 PM
Hypothalamus's Avatar
Hypothalamus Hypothalamus is offline
Homo sapiens sapiens
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 3rd planet from the Sun
Posts: 1,665
I actually don't mind having a thin glass box for this location-- being so close to 4 WTC and the WTC complex. It will probably "fit in". The bulk difference will be something to appreciate, as well. Although if this were to be built anywhere else, including 57th street, I'd be very disappointed.
__________________
“If I have done the public any service, it is due to my patient thought.” ― Isaac Newton

~ My Stamford, CT Thread ~~ My Danbury, CT Thread ~
     
     
  #186  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2014, 1:52 PM
Hypothalamus's Avatar
Hypothalamus Hypothalamus is offline
Homo sapiens sapiens
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 3rd planet from the Sun
Posts: 1,665
Cross post-- back in October... It's the site to the right where the "ALL WAY" and "ALL TRAFFIC" signs are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILNY View Post
__________________
“If I have done the public any service, it is due to my patient thought.” ― Isaac Newton

~ My Stamford, CT Thread ~~ My Danbury, CT Thread ~

Last edited by Hypothalamus; Jan 22, 2014 at 11:45 PM.
     
     
  #187  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 10:37 PM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 57,024
This guy has a lot to say about it.



http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/vinolys-thames-street-design-purely-radical/

Viñoly’s design for 22 Thames bests the original proposal by Selldorf: Architecture Review
The newer blueprint for the Fisher Brothers and Witkoff tower is ‘purely’ radical






February 01, 2014
By James Gardner


Quote:
it is not often appreciated that, in addition to the usual choice between “conventional” and “unconventional” architecture in New York City, there are, in fact, two further options: the “unconventionally conventional” and the “conventionally unconventional.” Both can be found in the design plans put forward for 22 Thames Street in Lower Manhattan.

For $150 million, Fisher Brothers acquired the site, where a 10-story, decidedly conventional Beaux-Arts building circa 1900 stands. Fisher Brothers and the Witkoff Group now plan to tear that building down and erect a 400-unit residential high-rise, a stone’s throw from the World Trade Center site.

From the beginning, there was no question that the developers of 22 Thames Street would build something tall. The question was whether to build something super-tall and super-thin, or something slightly shorter — but still lofty — and broader. Initially the developers were leaning toward the latter option, in the interests of harmonizing with the surrounding architecture. The design they floated was by Annabelle Selldorf, a renowned and sought-after architect who has been most active in Chelsea in recent years.

But a few months ago, the developers changed architects and enlisted Rafael Viñoly to design something very tall and very thin. In fact, the massing of this new project, which is still pending approvals, so closely resembles that of Viñoly’s high-profile under-construction 432 Park Avenue, which is already near the half-way point of its ascent, that it is hard to imagine that the Uptown building did not weigh heavily on the developers and cause them to rethink the design.

The choice of Viñoly is clearly the right one. He is, in the case of 22 Thames, unconventionally conventional, whereas Selldorf has proven herself to be just the opposite: conventionally unconventional.

Each of the architects’ blueprints for 22 Thames includes a tower on a base. But the base seems weightier in Selldorf’s design, and the tower that rises above it is squatter. As is usually the case with her designs, the principal interest resides in the treatment of the external surface. Her sense of décor is decidedly unconventional, in the simple sense that most architects have not chosen to follow her lead, and also in that she often seems to be pulling some sequence of formal motifs out of her hat in the hope that they will all coalesce into something wonderful.

Unfortunately, that does not usually happen. At 22 Thames Street, Selldorf devised a surface treatment that looked rather too much like a two-tone accumulation of beads, some glazed, some solid, all of them irregularly deployed across the surface and rising over a glazed and luminous base. Most of these beads were one-story, though some, for no apparent reason, were two. The result looked odd and quirky and so “unconventional,” but in a way that somehow remained comfortably within the confines of licit rebellion.

Put another way, the design looked the way conformists might imagine architectural rebellion to look.

By contrast, Viñoly’s design turned that equation on its head. If you are not really paying attention, you might think that the design, like the one he created for 432 Park, was — in every respect except its height — a conventional, even boring, specimen of Neo-Modernism. The pattern is simple and geometric; there is no trace of that syncopated rhythm that so many contemporary architects favor. There are no curved lines to be seen, and the cladding looks as though it could have been conceived for any number of Skidmore Owings and Merrill office towers conceived from 1970 to the present.

But there is far more to the building than that. In a certain sense, one can best understand Viñoly’s designs by applying to them the standards of art criticism, especially those of sculpture, rather than the more usual criteria that apply to architecture.

The closest analogies to 432 Park and 22 Thames are the sculptures of Sol LeWitt and Jackie Windsor, as well as the paintings of Agnes Martin, acts of conceptual art from the 1970s. Or, from slightly earlier, the Minimalist sculptures of Donald Judd and Tony Smith. In the latest design — which could be modified depending on input from city officials — the Downtown building rises up in almost freakish slenderness, a monolithic tower as pure, in its way, as that alien artifact that descended to Earth in Stanley Kubrick’s “2001: A Space Odyssey.”

That is to say that Viñoly has purged his surfaces of all adornment or distraction, until the very pertinacity and discipline of his design — in one sense so conventional — bursts through to a design as strikingly original as anything built in Manhattan in over a generation.

Immediately to the east of the main tower is a slab of almost wafer-thinness that looks as though it provides some structural support to the tower. It rises from the ground all the way to up the tower’s summit and then surpasses it by about 100 feet. And yet, I am willing to wager a good amount of capital that it serves no structural function at all: it has been included entirely on the basis of the way it looks, and it looks very good indeed. If that shaft surpasses 937 feet, it will make 22 Thames the tallest residential building in Lower Manhattan, surpassing Silverstein Properties’ 30 Park Place, which is now under construction.

At its base is a structure that resembles the one Selldorf designed, even though it is more perfectly cubic, and thus more satisfying to the eye. The shaft of the tower, to judge from the renderings, is striated by the long rows of windows that rise in uninterrupted bays from the base to the summit. This element as well adds subtle visual interest that belies that initial sense of conventionality that the building eagerly projects.

In the most general terms, the formal elements of 22 Thames recall those of 432 Park in their uniform simplicity. And both projects achieve great and memorable beauty through their obedience to those premises. But whereas the Uptown building is almost Neo-Brutalist in its joyous parade of raw concrete, the Downtown building, perhaps out of respect for its architectural context, embraces the conventionality of the glass curtain wall that abounds in this part of the island. If only the other buildings in its vicinity looked as good as this promises to be when completed.


http://www.22thames.com/










__________________
NEW YORK is Back!

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.

Last edited by NYguy; Feb 3, 2014 at 10:48 PM.
     
     
  #188  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2014, 11:14 PM
FMIII's Avatar
FMIII FMIII is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Paris
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
The choice of Viñoly is clearly the right one. He is, in the case of 22 Thames, unconventionally conventional, whereas Selldorf has proven herself to be just the opposite: conventionally unconventional.
This is quite an unconventional way to define the work of an architect.

I think that this tower does looks very good. Tall and thin while original : a monolithic tower as pure, in its way, as that alien artifact that descended to Earth in Stanley Kubrick’s “2001: A Space Odyssey". That is exactly how the east facade looks like with its monumental slab.

I wonder if it is not a beautiful trick to avoid the typical ugly blank wall seen on many towers awaiting a taller neighbor.
     
     
  #189  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 4:06 AM
scalziand's Avatar
scalziand scalziand is offline
Mortaaaaaaaaar!
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Naugatuck, CT/Worcester,MA
Posts: 3,504
They derped a bit on this graphic; 22 Thames is actually the building to the south.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FMIII View Post
I wonder if it is not a beautiful trick to avoid the typical ugly blank wall seen on many towers awaiting a taller neighbor.
I think you may be right on that.
     
     
  #190  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 5:33 AM
Onn Onn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The United States
Posts: 1,937
Vinoly is something else. He has quickly become one of my favorite starchitects and I'm not sure why. The guy is crazy about his creations, a genius. I'm sure this one will turn out just as well as 432 Park!
     
     
  #191  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 10:06 AM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 57,024
I wanna see more of it...



Quote:
Originally Posted by hunser View Post
__________________
NEW YORK is Back!

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #192  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 3:27 PM
M. Incandenza M. Incandenza is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Texas/New York
Posts: 91
Quote:
But there is far more to the building than that. In a certain sense, one can best understand Viñoly’s designs by applying to them the standards of art criticism, especially those of sculpture, rather than the more usual criteria that apply to architecture.

The closest analogies to 432 Park and 22 Thames are the sculptures of Sol LeWitt and Jackie Windsor, as well as the paintings of Agnes Martin, acts of conceptual art from the 1970s. Or, from slightly earlier, the Minimalist sculptures of Donald Judd and Tony Smith. In the latest design — which could be modified depending on input from city officials — the Downtown building rises up in almost freakish slenderness, a monolithic tower as pure, in its way, as that alien artifact that descended to Earth in Stanley Kubrick’s “2001: A Space Odyssey.”

That is to say that Viñoly has purged his surfaces of all adornment or distraction, until the very pertinacity and discipline of his design — in one sense so conventional — bursts through to a design as strikingly original as anything built in Manhattan in over a generation.

Immediately to the east of the main tower is a slab of almost wafer-thinness that looks as though it provides some structural support to the tower. It rises from the ground all the way to up the tower’s summit and then surpasses it by about 100 feet. And yet, I am willing to wager a good amount of capital that it serves no structural function at all: it has been included entirely on the basis of the way it looks, and it looks very good indeed. If that shaft surpasses 937 feet, it will make 22 Thames the tallest residential building in Lower Manhattan, surpassing Silverstein Properties’ 30 Park Place, which is now under construction.
Blech. Pretentious and unoriginal - I mean, this defense of "purging the surface of all distraction and adornment" and "discipline" (weird puritanism there) could have been written 70 years ago. But this building - this building - is the most strikingly original thing built in Manhattan in a generation?

Vinoly is quickly becoming my least favorite architect.
     
     
  #193  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 4:28 PM
FMIII's Avatar
FMIII FMIII is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Paris
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Incandenza View Post
Blech. Pretentious and unoriginal - I mean, this defense of "purging the surface of all distraction and adornment" and "discipline" (weird puritanism there) could have been written 70 years ago. But this building - this building - is the most strikingly original thing built in Manhattan in a generation?

Vinoly is quickly becoming my least favorite architect.
The article is maybe a bit too optimistic about his work and this tower may not be "the most strikingly original thing built in Manhattan in a generation".

That being said, why don't you like it? (the tower in itself not Vinoly)
     
     
  #194  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 7:12 PM
scalziand's Avatar
scalziand scalziand is offline
Mortaaaaaaaaar!
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Naugatuck, CT/Worcester,MA
Posts: 3,504
If it has mullions like this I think I can be ok with it.
     
     
  #195  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 9:01 PM
mistermetAJ mistermetAJ is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMIII View Post
The article is maybe a bit too optimistic about his work and this tower may not be "the most strikingly original thing built in Manhattan in a generation".

That being said, why don't you like it? (the tower in itself not Vinoly)
The building, like most minimalist structures, lacks design. It is nothing more than an engineering feat to build tall and thin. The same can easily be said of 432 Park Ave. An architect was not needed for this.
     
     
  #196  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 9:21 PM
FMIII's Avatar
FMIII FMIII is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Paris
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermetAJ View Post
The building, like most minimalist structures, lacks design. It is nothing more than an engineering feat to build tall and thin. The same can easily be said of 432 Park Ave. An architect was not needed for this.
I understand your point of view. And all skyscrapers fan drew in their childhood a perfect replica of 432 park (maybe not as high but close ).

However, I never judge a tower by its architect (or lack of it) but by its impact on its surroundings and the skyline. This tower, if simple and unoriginal, fits perfectly in its surroundings while adding a touch of modernity welcome in that part of the city.

For instance, I would have liked it less if it had been planned in midtown.
     
     
  #197  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 9:34 PM
mistermetAJ mistermetAJ is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMIII View Post
I understand your point of view. And all skyscrapers fan drew in their childhood a perfect replica of 432 park (maybe not as high but close ).

However, I never judge a tower by its architect (or lack of it) but by its impact on its surroundings and the skyline. This tower, if simple and unoriginal, fits perfectly in its surroundings while adding a touch of modernity welcome in that part of the city.

For instance, I would have liked it less if it had been planned in midtown.
Fair enough. I agree with the majority of what you posted. That being said, I view architecture as grand civic art. Perhaps you are right and it will have a negligible effect on the "canvas" that is the NYC skyline, however as an individual piece, it is a let down for me.
     
     
  #198  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 11:14 PM
M. Incandenza M. Incandenza is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Texas/New York
Posts: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMIII View Post
The article is maybe a bit too optimistic about his work and this tower may not be "the most strikingly original thing built in Manhattan in a generation".

That being said, why don't you like it? (the tower in itself not Vinoly)
Because it's boring. Because it lacks anything to draw one's attention in. Because the materials (assuming a glass curtain wall and maybe steek mullions or whatever) lack the sort of heft and depth that lend a building a sense of solidity and dignity. Because sticking a vertical spine on the back doesn't change the fact that's it's essentially just another modernist box. Because I don't like modernist boxes. Because the design does not engage the imagination. Because there is no delicacy or decoration or sense of interaction between the mundane and the ethereal that marks great skyscrapers. Because minimalism is depressing.
     
     
  #199  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2014, 12:05 AM
chris08876's Avatar
chris08876 chris08876 is offline
NYC/NJ/Miami-Dade
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Great State of NJ
Posts: 49,386
Judging from the rendering, this fits in perfectly with the memorial, and the surrounding area.
     
     
  #200  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2014, 5:29 AM
njcco njcco is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Incandenza View Post
Because it's boring. Because it lacks anything to draw one's attention in. Because the materials (assuming a glass curtain wall and maybe steek mullions or whatever) lack the sort of heft and depth that lend a building a sense of solidity and dignity. Because sticking a vertical spine on the back doesn't change the fact that's it's essentially just another modernist box. Because I don't like modernist boxes. Because the design does not engage the imagination. Because there is no delicacy or decoration or sense of interaction between the mundane and the ethereal that marks great skyscrapers. Because minimalism is depressing.
I have to agree. Wasn't there an earlier version of this project by a different architect that was far more nuanced and textured? I would like to have seen that one moving forward rather than this mediocre box.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
 

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Buildings & Architecture > Completed Project Threads Archive
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:43 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.