LOS ANGELES | Downtown Project Rundown 4.0

[BrandonJXN]

Anyway, I swung by Grand Park about an hour ago and took a bunch of pictures of the fountain with my cell phone. The fountain will be the main attraction by far as it's huge. The park itself is quite interesting with a whole lot of different plants and flowers. I think it'll be a success.

[LosAngelesDreamin]

Originally Posted by ThreeHundred

Dude...NO ONE likes Palmer's Tuscans. They are in no way good architecture. Especially how there are about 8 or 9 of these shits all over downtown. There was a protest back in October in Silverlake that I remember walking past that numerous people saying 'Down with Geoff Palmer.'

It wouldn't be so painful if he at least differentiated them but they are all alike.

well if they all look like copies and hes building the same thing over and over and over again then i guess yea... but im just saying a newer version of any kind of revival style or beaux arts isn't necessarily "fake" its just inspiration from the long past centuries... just because vegas gave those styles bad reputations doesn't mean that the architecture is a bad thing or ugly... a lot of buildings in rome, madrid and paris is built on beaux arts, baroque and romanesque revival... so are those cities completely fake?? since they took inspiration or ideas from centuries ago and applied them to their architecture??? no... just because it's not modern, sleek, and sophisticated..or a modern, simple, pastel colored block with windows doesn't mean it shouldn't be built... i think LA should open doors to a variety of architectural styles that resemble parts of the city

[LosAngelesDreamin]

Originally Posted by ThreeHundred

Anyway, I swung by Grand Park about an hour ago and took a bunch of pictures of the fountain with my cell phone. The fountain will be the main attraction by far as it's huge. The park itself is quite interesting with a whole lot of different plants and flowers. I think it'll be a success.

OMG IT LOOKS GORGEOUS

AND CITY HALL IS ALMOST LIKE "YES.. BOW DOWN TO ME"

MODERATOR EDIT: LosAngelesDreamin, no reason to quote all of those pictures two posts after the original post.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by ThreeHundred

Dude...NO ONE likes Palmer's Tuscans.

actually, threehundred, it seems enough ppl do like them to have made them book up rather quickly, ever since he first started building them over 10 yrs ago. And of all the new or rehab housing projs in dt, his bldgs individually have contained among the largest amt of apts in the hood. Or added all together, easily the greatest volume of new housing, bar none. of course, there's the well known phrase of "no accounting for taste".

I can understand your pov, but at the same time, are you more bothered, no less bothered, or just as bothered when I post pics of parking lots or other gaps & deadzones in dtla, which I recall you complaining about not long ago?

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by ThreeHundred

^ I live right down the street from Piero (or is it Medici/Orsini/Visconti/Lorenzo..the one on 6th Street)

I was under the vague impression you lived somewhere around culver city, or certainly weren't one of the few forumers who actually lives or spends much time in dt. But if you are a resident of dt, then I immediately defer to ppl like you. Ppl who live with the reality of dtla 24/7 deserve alot more benefit of the doubt that any outsider. that goes double when you post pics of things like the new civic ctr park.

btw, I notice the construction walls on grand ave in front of the rebuilt park still were still up as of sunday. so if your pics show a view that indicates those barricades have finally been removed, then I missed that same view on the weekend.

threehundred, please don't hesitate to use your cell phone to take as many pics of the hood as possible in the future....as far as I'm concerned, there can never be too many photos of various parts of dt.

[Illithid Dude]

Originally Posted by citywatch

actually, threehundred, it seems enough ppl do like them to have made them book up rather quickly, ever since he first started building them over 10 yrs ago. And of all the new or rehab housing projs in dt, his bldgs individually have contained among the largest amt of apts in the hood. Or added all together, easily the greatest volume of new housing, bar none. of course, there's the well known phrase of "no accounting for taste".

The only reason they keep leasing out is because there is such high demand for apartments downtown, and GH Palmer is often the only one sating it. If you hadn't noticed, everything downtown is leasing/selling at a rapid rate. If GH Palmer decided to actually put up quality work, that would be selling well, too.

[BrandonJXN]

Originally Posted by citywatch

I was under the vague impression you lived somewhere around culver city, or certainly weren't one of the few forumers who actually lives or spends much time in dt. But if you are a resident of dt, then I immediately defer to ppl like you. Ppl who live with the reality of dtla 24/7 deserve alot more benefit of the doubt that any outsider. that goes double when you post pics of things like the new civic ctr park.

btw, I notice the construction walls on grand ave in front of the rebuilt park still were still up as of sunday. so if your pics show a view that indicates those barricades have finally been removed, then I missed that same view on the weekend.

threehundred, please don't hesitate to use your cell phone to take as many pics of the hood as possible in the future....as far as I'm concerned, there can never be too many photos of various parts of dt.

I moved to Westlake back in late Feburary.

I can understand your pov, but at the same time, are you more bothered, no less bothered, or just as bothered when I post pics of parking lots or other gaps & deadzones in dtla, which I recall you complaining about not long ago?

Just as bothered. Only because you do it all the time.

And a picture of 1111 Wilshire that I took about a week ago.

[pesto]

Originally Posted by citywatch

actually, threehundred, it seems enough ppl do like them to have made them book up rather quickly, ever since he first started building them over 10 yrs ago. And of all the new or rehab housing projs in dt, his bldgs individually have contained among the largest amt of apts in the hood. Or added all together, easily the greatest volume of new housing, bar none. of course, there's the well known phrase of "no accounting for taste".

I can understand your pov, but at the same time, are you more bothered, no less bothered, or just as bothered when I post pics of parking lots or other gaps & deadzones in dtla, which I recall you complaining about not long ago?

lol; the rubber hits the road!

What is better:

10 Palmer Tuscans (or similar low-rise with minimal style)
10 empty lots (which could become 20-40 story towers)
10 rundown hotels (which could be torn-down or renovated)

Every affirmative decision has to be evaluated along with what it makes impossible.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

If GH Palmer decided to actually put up quality work, that would be selling well, too.

I'm not sure if it's 'quality'...or lack of such, which is a complaint that has long been directed at another major devlpr, the notorious Barry shy...as much as it's different style & taste.

this is very, very kitschy and very vegasy, but if it were merely a matter of quality----which generally means a lower budget-----alot of this fussiness & gaudiness would have been deleted, if only to save $$$....



theorsini.com


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^ there is a tacky veneer about some of that work, but it still must have cost quite a bit of extra $$ for the owner to have included that vegasy, disneyfied stuff. like it or not, quite a few ppl do equate such fussiness with a bigger budget, more $$, & therefore greater luxury.

I do believe the devlpr has managed to not just lease but pre lease many of his projs faster than what other devlprs of new apts in dt have done over the past 10 yrs. at the very least, he's built a greater supply than the others, so he's had to juggle more than they have. So he probably is more sensitive to accommodating the preferences of his customers. iow, if they start to balk at all his tackiness, he'll get too many prospective tenants going .

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by ThreeHundred

Just as bothered. Only because you do it all the time.

threehundred, I can instead mention for the umpteenth time that a proj in the hood isn't taller, isn't bigger, has too much parking, isn't transit or ped friendly enough, doesn't have retail on the 1st floor, has stucco instead of granite, isn't good enough to win a pritzker prize, is too burban, is a lost opportunity, ignores the edicts of urbanism & jane jacobs. btw, I have no trouble with such commentary, but such remarks are no less common & also go on 'all the time'.

Originally Posted by pesto

What is better:

10 Palmer Tuscans (or similar low-rise with minimal style)
10 empty lots (which could become 20-40 story towers)
10 rundown hotels (which could be torn-down or renovated)

pesto, I'd view things differently if, by some odd....& presumably tragic...act of nature in the near future, much of what's in NYC, seattle & silicon valley, & other major places, were forced to be closed down & relocated to another part of the country, mainly LA. At the same time, if hoods like Samo & venice, or glendale, weren't still attracting so much of the $$ of the city instead of dtla.

I'd also view things in a different light if the average life span of humans was 150 yrs instead of 80 or less. So I wouldn't be as to drop by dt yr after yr & still see lots & lots of & . When I was there a few days ago, I was overwhelmed by how many properties still desperately need to be cleaned up or filled in. It will take yrs & yrs & yrs & yrs to accomplish that, assuming, once again, that ppl & $$ in other major cities----or even just within LA alone-----aren't forced to move to LA, to dt in particular.

[DistrictDirt]

Originally Posted by citywatch

this is very, very kitschy and very vegasy, but if it were merely a matter of quality----which generally means a lower budget-----alot of this fussiness & gaudiness would have been deleted, if only to save $$$....

What bothers me more than the tackiness is this:



There's hardly any ground floor retail, and the few retail spaces that do exist in his buildings don't get enough light, as they are surrounded by these hulking, unadorned brick walls.

You'll notice that most of these spaces are vacant. And why shouldn't they be? What business in their right mind would open up shop in a place like this? It's a retail death sentence. No one's going to be drawn in to shop there, let alone even notice that these shops exists.

So that's my biggest beef with Palmer. He has insured that the areas where he has built his projects remain dead blocks, likely for the remainder of our lifetimes. He has single handedly reduced Downtown's potential as an active pedestrian district, especially in City West. Bravo.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by DistrictDirt

You'll notice that most of these spaces are vacant. And why shouldn't they be? What business in their right mind would open up shop in a place like this? It's a retail death sentence. No one's going to be drawn in to shop there, let alone even notice that these shops exists.

the pretense of including retail in his bldgs has been ridiculous, & I'm not sure if it's a ploy on the owner's part in order to meet city codes. the fact he's xeroxed all his apt bldgs is a sign of laziness or possibly a cheapness on his part. But there's a question of whether he'd stick so obsessively with the same formula if it didn't work from the beginning, when he opened his first major apt bldg in 2001. I read that the architects who work on his projs probably shudder, cringe, but zip their lips, & do as he wishes.

But his apt bldgs not enlivening the streets they sit on doesn't bother me as much cuz they're all located in peripheral sections of dt. If they instead were located on very major, busy streets....in the heart of dtla....that would be another matter.

I recall when I visited NYC several yrs ago, I noticed the upper east side of manhattan was packed with large apt bldgs, just about wall to wall. But there was little to no retail on the first floor of most of them. the number of ppl walking around that section of the city was much lower than in the traditionally more communal parts of NY.

[LA/OCman]

Originally Posted by DistrictDirt

What bothers me more than the tackiness is this:



There's hardly any ground floor retail, and the few retail spaces that do exist in his buildings don't get enough light, as they are surrounded by these hulking, unadorned brick walls.

You'll notice that most of these spaces are vacant. And why shouldn't they be? What business in their right mind would open up shop in a place like this? It's a retail death sentence. No one's going to be drawn in to shop there, let alone even notice that these shops exists.

So that's my biggest beef with Palmer. He has insured that the areas where he has built his projects remain dead blocks, likely for the remainder of our lifetimes. He has single handedly reduced Downtown's potential as an active pedestrian district, especially in City West. Bravo.

I have mixed feelings about the Palmer Developments. I like how many thousands of residents he brought to Downtown when nobody was building. I don't like the cookie cutter approach but I think it is better than boarded up, grafitti-covered slums. I am not a fan of beige buildings but I don't mind the brick. I think the retail spaces should be offered to incubator businesses with very low rent. Fill those spaces with technology companies and the "coffee house" effect will follow. Or, make them live/work spaces.

[BrandonJXN]

Originally Posted by citywatch

But his apt bldgs not enlivening the streets they sit on doesn't bother me as much cuz they're all located in peripheral sections of dt. If they instead were located on very major, busy streets....in the heart of dtla....that would be another matter.

Even if they're not in the Historic Core, the areas right outside of downtown shouldn't be subject to shit.

Take for example Glo. Right across the street from 1100 Wilshire.


Or Hikari in Little Tokyo.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2270/2116890442_a522cf2056.jpg

Or Sakura Crossing in Little Tokyo.

http://chrisschramm.com/portfolio/web/bu...es/mudmur/0710/sakuracrossing/photo1.jpg

One thing these pictures don't tell you is that these buildings bring out life into a neighborhood. Even Glo who sits in pretty volatile area of City West manages to attract the Starbucks crowd. Hikari's retail spots are all filled up (American Apparel, Kinkos some Japanese restaurant and one or two other places one of which is a fairly high end clothing store) and Sakura Crossing will only get better once Ava breaks ground).

The Medici, Michelangelo, Donatello, Mario, Luigi and the rest do no such thing. Retail will never be in those buildings at all. In fact, the one and only time I did see a space occupied was for a place that did your taxes. These are poorly designed, cheap looking, and there are far too many of them.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by LA/OCman

I think the retail spaces should be offered to incubator businesses with very low rent. Fill those spaces with technology companies and the "coffee house" effect will follow. Or, make them live/work spaces.

I'm reminded of the bonaventure hotel that has a huge amt of store space in the lower floors of its lobbies that have always struggled to attract & hold tenants. Ppl visiting that hotel often mention how its like being in a failed shopping ctr from the 1970s. When I was there several months ago, I thought the only way all those vacant stores could be filled was to either convert them to hotel rms....although they'd be rms without windows....or offer them at super low rates & hope some small newbie businesses will take the bait.

even though those spaces are on the inside, the same problem applies to many areas set aside for stores or small businesses right next to sidewalks throughout dt. Ppl have to remember that starting up a new business is a very tough task, prone to failure....made worse by a city that makes owners run through an obstacle course to get permits, & a potential base of shoppers or clients that still can be very spotty at best.

the huge, huge numbers of ppl moseying around a city like NYC----inc large numbers of locals, tourists, office workers, & burbanites in the city for the day-----& who can easily be a lucrative customer, still are lacking in much of dtla.

Originally Posted by ThreeHundred

Take for example Glo. Right across the street from 1100 Wilshire.

Or Sakura Crossing in Little Tokyo.

Glo is on one of the biggest streets in the city...on wilshire...& apt bldgs like sakura & hikari are in the very small & well confined section of little tokyo. so they're not in a very secondary or peripheral part of the hood.

It's also a mistake to assume that spaces for shops or small businesses ideal for ppl by walking on the sidewalk won't be rented out if they're not in a bldg that's 100% very friendly to pedestrians.

this is the first floor of the medici on 7th st, which is a rather high visibility street. I do now have to say that Palmer's first big apt proj in the hood was not necessarily in a very peripheral section of dt. but even though it's on 7th st, even though the design seems inviting enough for use by a possible store----those flared out or embankment type walls notwithstanding----it doesn't look like a business owner who opens a shop in that area will be an instant success...


maps.google.com

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by LA/OCman

I have mixed feelings about the Palmer Developments. I like how many thousands of residents he brought to Downtown when nobody was building. I don't like the cookie cutter approach but I think it is better than boarded up, grafitti-covered slums. I am not a fan of beige buildings but I don't mind the brick. I think the retail spaces should be offered to incubator businesses with very low rent. Fill those spaces with technology companies and the "coffee house" effect will follow. Or, make them live/work spaces.

i pretty much agree with everything you just said. I really like that incubator idea, but i doubt Palmer is willing to chop his rents even though the spots are all vacant

[BrandonJXN]

From the live cam.







http://marriott2lalive.com/view/viewer_index.shtml?id=4576

[alki]

Originally Posted by citywatch

which shows that a person has to have a crystal ball to really know which direction a city will take or how much potential it does or doesn't have.

I know if I were the age I am today, but were pushed back in time to the 1980s, I'd have predicted that dtla would be in a slump forever & ever. to me it would have been an act of futility to believe some of the changes for the better that have occurred more recently would have been possible.

I have to tell you I was just the opposite. When I left LA I had concluded that DTLA was never coming back. In fact I never bothered to check it out on my last trip to LA even though the Gehry music hall had been completed. It was only a couple of years ago I starting reading Curbed LA and realized that DTLA was in revival. I think that revival is pretty impressive.

{QUOTE]then again, I also can go to the hood today & still be very disappointed that certain things about it have yet to get better.....I originally believed that all the office space that continues to be vacant would have been filled up well before now. still, I would have been too skeptical overall given the circumstances 20 yrs ago.[/QUOTE]

In general, office absorption in metro LA has slowed dramatically in the past 20 years. You can't have strong office demand without good job growth.....and after the early 90s, LA stopped experiencing good job growth. And DTLA has been a perennial weak link when it comes to office space. Hopefully, that will change going forward.

[alki]

Originally Posted by ThreeHundred

Anyway, I swung by Grand Park about an hour ago and took a bunch of pictures of the fountain with my cell phone. The fountain will be the main attraction by far as it's huge. The park itself is quite interesting with a whole lot of different plants and flowers. I think it'll be a success.

Nice to hear the reaction of someone 'on the ground'. Keep it coming......from any posters who make it to the park.

[alki]

Originally Posted by pesto

Don't get me started on convention centers: a dying industry that no one will put their own money into but are happy to manage for you (especially if you waive the hotel taxes).

btw, AEG has proposed that Oakland do the same thing: put up a "world-class" convention facility next to the Coliseum and Oracle Arena that will draw conventions away from SF, LV, Disneyland, etc. I'm sure someone will propose it for the new 49er stadium in Santa Clara as well, which already has the Santa Clara convention facilities next door.

They wouldn't get away with it if cities didn't keep looking for a quick fix. And these projects squander so much valuable monies Ugh!