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  #881  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2008, 10:45 PM
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1/4 mile rule? I forgot how unwilling people are in Texas to walk. My walk home from work alone is 3 miles, and that doesn't count everyday walking like to Karaoke (.8 miles), bf's work/Pike Place Market (2 miles), Coffee shop (1.5 miles), and so on.

I've been walking more now that it's warmer.

But goodness-- a quarter mile? That might work in a denser city, but seriously...
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  #882  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2008, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by nixcity View Post
Two quick questions, (1)Are they still on pace to put up the rail line on the November ballot?, I'm a little concerned if so because we will also be voting on a teacher pay raise and people are so strapped right now I feel they might not be so eager for even a small tax increase. BTW, what is the top speed for their proposed cars, are they sticking with streetcars instead of the other quicker models they were going to use?


(2)Is part of the proposal a connecting line from the CR stop by Con. Center to tie into the proposed line which, in my opinion, should go right up Congress? I realize this is not preferrable, but maybe it would help bring in a few more suburban riders trying to get to 5th/Congress area or the Capitol complex.

thanx

1) The urban rail proposal will not be on the ballot this November. It is too late already. It could be on the ballot in May, but not the entire 15.5 mile / two line system. The state law that requires a referendum in Austin requires the vote to be held in November of even numbered years, unless the project is less than 12 miles in length. That means the Elgin commuter rail line will not be on the ballot until November 2010.

1.5) The top speed of the Portland streetcar type vehicle currently proposed is 45 - 50 mph (but all rail vehicles operating in street - whether in shared or dedicated lanes - is subject to speed limits of the roads they operate on). The actual vehicle won't be chosen for many years.

2) The proposal includes extending (and double-tracking) the commuter rail line at least to Brazos so that transfer to the urban rail system is as close as possible.
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  #883  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2008, 1:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan View Post
1) The urban rail proposal will not be on the ballot this November. It is too late already. It could be on the ballot in May, but not the entire 15.5 mile / two line system. The state law that requires a referendum in Austin requires the vote to be held in November of even numbered years, unless the project is less than 12 miles in length. That means the Elgin commuter rail line will not be on the ballot until November 2010.

1.5) The top speed of the Portland streetcar type vehicle currently proposed is 45 - 50 mph (but all rail vehicles operating in street - whether in shared or dedicated lanes - is subject to speed limits of the roads they operate on). The actual vehicle won't be chosen for many years.

2) The proposal includes extending (and double-tracking) the commuter rail line at least to Brazos so that transfer to the urban rail system is as close as possible.
I agree, any streetcar or commuter train down 4th street will be limited to the street's speed limits. I don't understand placing a stop on Brazos. I say extend the line all the way to Congress, and beyond, at least to San Antonio Street, where there's the Republic Square Park on the north side of 4th Street. If ASA commuter rail gets built to San Antonio, extend it to 3rd and Lamar, where the ASA station is planned to be built. It could cross diagonally across Shoal Creek to third, eliminating 90 degree turns. The Stadler GTW CapMetro bought has the same 300 feet turning radius as freight trains.

And while I understand CapMetro calls this commuter rail, it's more like diesel power light rail, just without overhead power lines. The Stadler GTW railcars aren't much longer than Dart's SLRV, hold about the same number of passengers, and have about the same horsepower.

Stadler GTW for CapMetro dimensions:
Length: 134 feet
Width: 9 feet, 8 inches
Seated Passengers: 96
Weight: 72 tons
Horsepower: 630 hp

Kinkisharyo's SLRV for Dart dimensions:
Length: 124 feet
Width: 8 feet, 10 inches
Seated Passengers: 100
Weight: 70 tons
Horsepower: 4 x 175 hp motors = 700 hp

Compared to real Commuter Rail Bombardier Bi-Level cars used by the TRE:
Length: 85 feet
Width: 9 feet, 10 inches
Seated Passengers: 96
Weight: 55 tons

But these must have locomotives. EMD's F59's are the newest in the TRE fleet. Here's their dimensions:
Length: 58 feet, 7 inches
Width: 10 feet, 6 inches
Weight: 134 tons
Horsepower: 3,000 hp

Both CapMetro's DMU railcars and Dart's SLRV are FTA (Federal Transit Administration) certified, not FRA (Federal Railroad Administration) certified, and can't share tracks with freight trains at the same time.

Meanwhile, the true commuter rail TRE bi-level cars are FRA certified and can share tracks with freight trains.
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  #884  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2008, 1:58 AM
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5th and Congress is FOUR blocks away from the Convention Center CapMetro Rail Station. Some people walk that far to get to their parked cars. Why is that too far to walk? That's not even a good stretch of one's legs.
The 1/4 mile rule is not a fiction - and those who ignore it are idiots. We're not talking about transit-positive people here; those folks are already taking the express bus (which takes them right to their destination anyways).

The city covered this way back in 2004, with a helpful picture. Just in case they wise up and get rid of it, here's my edited link to it from back then and my improved picture



Green and yellow dots indicated major attractors - blue line is Congress Avenue (2000 light rail route). Only the rightmost station is relevant; the rest will not be built.
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  #885  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2008, 2:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan View Post
1) The urban rail proposal will not be on the ballot this November. It is too late already. It could be on the ballot in May, but not the entire 15.5 mile / two line system. The state law that requires a referendum in Austin requires the vote to be held in November of even numbered years, unless the project is less than 12 miles in length. That means the Elgin commuter rail line will not be on the ballot until November 2010.
Oh, good
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  #886  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2008, 2:22 AM
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How handy to suggest the train stops in the middle of the intersection at 4th and Red River, blocking that intersection. The front of the train will actually be near 4th and Trinity, two blocks closer to Congress.



That's a difference of 670 feet. A one car train is only 134 feet long. A two car train is less than half the 670 feet you suggest.

From the front of the train, at 4th and Trinity, a quarter mile north reaches 8th Street, a quarter mile east reaches I 35 west service road, a quarter mile south reaches the cul de sac at the of Trinity, and a quarter mile west reaches Congress.

If CapMetro placed stations where I suggested, you'll only have to walk one-eight mile along 4th Street. Reaching from the Colorado River to 8th street.

p.s. Most blocks in downtown Austin are 350 feet squares, from centerline of street to centerline of street.

One quarter mile = 1320 feet = 3.77 blocks; closer to 4 blocks vs 3 blocks.

Interesting walking distance to train station statistics:
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/plannin..._abstracts.pdf

I believe BART guidelines break the distances into percentages best:

In the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit System (BART), 80% of the pedestrians using BART during peak hour periods walked less than 10 minutes to the station, while somewhat over half of those pedestrians walking under 6 minutes to reach their destination. The distance for a 6 minute walk was estimated to be a quarter of a mile.
30% of trips walked to BART station
Of that 30% who walked, 80% walked less than 10 minutes (45% walked under 6 minutes (approximately 1350 feet) and 35% walked between 6-10 minutes, approximately 1350 to 2250 feet)
Distance for a 6 minute walk was estimated to be about ¼ mile
Overall average walking time for all who walked to the BART stations was 8.8 minutes
Generally considered that the average person walks about 225 feet per minute
Overall average length of walk was probably about 1,980 feet (.375 miles)
Average walking time for walkers to their destination at end of trip was 7.2 minutes or about 1,600 feet (1/3 mile)

The average of all walkers was a third of a mile, up to 1600 feet. That would be 4.5 blocks in downtown Austin.
And that's the average of those walking to the train station, including those walking shorter and longer distances.

The quarter mile rule means 80% would walk that far without a second thought. But the average (50%) passenger that walks to a train station walks a third of a mile. You'll find some willing to walk further, and the statistics vary by city and terrain.

In Calgary and Edmonton, where it snows a lot and gets freezing cold most winters:
For the Canadian cities, the average walking distance to suburban stations is (649m=2129 feet=0.4 miles) with a 75th-percentile distance of (840 m=0.52 miles). And in Edmonton, 1750m (1.08 miles) was maximum that people would walk to train station.

Chart to illustrate people’s tolerance for walking:
In a highly attractive, completely weather-protected and artificially climatized environment
20 Minutes 5,000 Feet (almost a mile) (In a Mall)
In a highly attractive environment in which sidewalks are protected from sunshine and rain
10 Minutes 2,500 Feet (almost a half mile) (Parks and Zoos with nice sidewalks)
In an attractive but not weather-protected area during periods of inclement weather
5 Minutes 1,250 Feet (almost a quarter mile) (Does it rain that much in Austin? Downtown streets with sidewalks)
In an unattractive environment (parking lot, garage, traffic-congested streets without sidewalks)
2 Minutes 600 Feet (almost one-eight a mile) (Dark areas are never popular)

There will be some healthy passengers who will make the 0.8 mile walk to the State Capital from the Convention Center Station.

Last edited by electricron; Sep 6, 2008 at 3:08 AM.
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  #887  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2008, 5:53 PM
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As just a concerned citizen with little real knowledge of urban rail other than personal experiences through travelling I really appreciate all of the info. I do think that extending the line into downtown as much as possible is important. I couldn't imagine a half mile walk in the 3-4 months of summer heat with temperatures around 100, especially for those in suits.

So it sounds like we won't vote for the Riverside to Mueller line until May, as much as I want to get this online ASAP this should help it pass easier.
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  #888  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2008, 1:10 AM
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electricron, you're not doing anybody any favors by insisting that choice commuters will somehow act like transit-supportive commuters. They won't; there's a reason the 1/4 mile rule exists.

And I'd much rather walk 1/3 of a mile in the snow than in the heat.

Finally, the picture I included came from the city. They themselves argue that it's too far to walk to most of downtown - including the parts where everybody but hotel workers actually works (and the hotel workers are largely transit-dependent). The location on the block between Trinity and Neches (NOT "at Trinity") is more than 1/4 mile away from essentially all non-trivial downtown office buildings; and more than 1/2 mile away from many.
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  #889  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2008, 3:08 AM
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electricron, you're not doing anybody any favors by insisting that choice commuters will somehow act like transit-supportive commuters. They won't; there's a reason the 1/4 mile rule exists.

And I'd much rather walk 1/3 of a mile in the snow than in the heat.

Finally, the picture I included came from the city. They themselves argue that it's too far to walk to most of downtown - including the parts where everybody but hotel workers actually works (and the hotel workers are largely transit-dependent). The location on the block between Trinity and Neches (NOT "at Trinity") is more than 1/4 mile away from essentially all non-trivial downtown office buildings; and more than 1/2 mile away from many.
I wasn't arguing that everyone would walk more than a quarter mile, just that some would. Maybe more than you and the city believe will.

And I did write that each city was different. Yes, it gets hot in Austin.
But, and not to slight Austin one bit, Austin could do more to encourage walking to the station. Wide sidewalk with lots of shade trees wouldn't be a good start. That's why I like another stop at 4th and San Antonio, it's right next to Republic Square Park.

And if Austin builds a streetcar or light rail down Congress, having a stop to transfer between trains is also a great choice.

And I have a recommendation for the street car down Manor too.
Whether they go clockwise or counterclockwse I don't care. But wouldn't it reach more passengers if it went north around the east side of the Capital up San Jacinto, and went south around the west side of the Capital down Lavaca or Guadalupe? I'll assume it'll go to MLK before turning onto Manor.

Of course, a subway line straight up Congress then turning onto Manor would be the rich man's choice.

How many times has the good citizens of Austin voted down light rail?

I assume it's safe enough to say a sufficient amount of times for CapMetro to switch modes of transport to something cheaper to build, like DMUs and Streetcars.
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  #890  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2008, 7:02 AM
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yeah that 1/4 mile rule is wrong and something that they must of just made up. alot of people will walk more then that. especially in a health town like this. I have walked miles in the snow and i have walked miles in the heat to get where i need to go. I mean just look at the mono rail in vegas. i use it every time i am there i love it. i trust it more then those crazy taxi's. and you have to walk over a 1/4 a mile sometimes and the heat is alot worse there.
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  #891  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2008, 3:53 PM
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Rail 4 Real

UT Groups Want Streetcar on Campus



http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrob...d=oid%3A668858

UT Dean Fritz SteinerA new University of Texas student group, Rail 4 Real, is advocating for rail transit to serve students – and for the UT administration to change its position that a Capital Metro streetcar route could only be considered along San Jacinto through campus. The alliance of UT Student Government, the Campus Environmental Center, and the Urban Development Society is hosting a public forum at 6pm Wednesday, Sept. 10, at Goldsmith Hall, Room 3.120. UT Dean Fritz Steiner, state Rep. Mike Krusee, and Mayor Pro Tem Brewster McCracken will speak. Says Rail 4 Real: "This group is dedicated to serve as an outlet for the thousands of students who are ready to ditch their cars for a more walkable, pedestrian-friendly campus and a better Austin as a whole. ... Our goal is to locate rail where the people are, somewhere between San Antonio and Speedway. Our great University is worthy of such a great endeavor, and to misplace rail at this time would be criminal." – K.G.
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  #892  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2008, 12:32 AM
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Yeah, I am a member of UT's UDS. I am hoping for better transit options for the campus area.
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  #893  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2008, 2:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ATXboom View Post
UT Groups Want Streetcar on Campus



http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrob...d=oid%3A668858

UT Dean Fritz SteinerA new University of Texas student group, Rail 4 Real, is advocating for rail transit to serve students – and for the UT administration to change its position that a Capital Metro streetcar route could only be considered along San Jacinto through campus. The alliance of UT Student Government, the Campus Environmental Center, and the Urban Development Society is hosting a public forum at 6pm Wednesday, Sept. 10, at Goldsmith Hall, Room 3.120. UT Dean Fritz Steiner, state Rep. Mike Krusee, and Mayor Pro Tem Brewster McCracken will speak. Says Rail 4 Real: "This group is dedicated to serve as an outlet for the thousands of students who are ready to ditch their cars for a more walkable, pedestrian-friendly campus and a better Austin as a whole. ... Our goal is to locate rail where the people are, somewhere between San Antonio and Speedway. Our great University is worthy of such a great endeavor, and to misplace rail at this time would be criminal." – K.G.
They're all idiots! That isn't walkable and would certainly be worse than a bus.

UDS? More like SDS.
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  #894  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2008, 4:09 PM
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alexjon, the students are pushing for a re-routing of the streetcar that will include reserved guideway - which is obviously better than existing bus service.

electricon, the citizens of Austin voted FOR light rail in 2000, the only time it was ever on the ballot. It lost, overall, by less than 200 votes - due to suburban opposition (Leander and unincorporated areas - ironically, the people who are getting the only real service from the commuter rail plan).

Anybody who at any point tells you that "we voted against that so many times I can't believe they're doing it" should immediately be written off as an ignoramus. Not surprisingly given the modern know-nothing media environment, there are actually a surprising number of people who think Austin voted against rail several times.
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  #895  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2008, 4:33 PM
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Where is the available space for reserved guideway? Or is this included as in going around certain bottlenecks and such but not totally reserved?
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  #896  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2008, 8:20 PM
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Speedway was closed to auto traffic a few years ago, but has not yet been rebuilt as a good pedestrian mall (I doubt it ever will, given UT's ham-handed approach with transportation). Sticking rail on there might actually be the best way to get it turned from a "closed street" to a more traditional campus pedestrian mall.
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  #897  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2008, 1:06 AM
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Speedway could be promising. Then it would just pick back up at Dean Keeton and head east.
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  #898  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2008, 3:53 PM
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Speedway could be promising. Then it would just pick back up at Dean Keeton and head east.
Speedway leads right onto Congress north of the State Capitol, allowing for a loop around (preferably in both directions) back to Congress again.

Loops like that are perfectly acceptable for streetcar lines.

At Dean Keaton, an option to head west to Gaudalupe and north up Guadalupe could be used for a later expansion. Major north-south through traffic could be rerouted onto Lamar. Of course, turnng west at Dean Keaton could also be done from San Jacinto too.


Back to walking distances again, Dart's experience has been, that MOST passengers will walk a quarter mile to a BUS stop and will walk a half mile to a TRAIN station; and I would like to add that it gets just as hot in Dallas as it does in Austin.
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  #899  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2008, 4:50 PM
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Dart's experience has most definitely NOT been that. Not anywhere I've read. Of course, if we're talking about people who don't own cars, all bets are off - I'd rather walk 1/2 mile to the train than 1/4 of a mile to the bus as well.

As for Austin, the worst problem segment of Guadalupe is from 27th to 30th, so your scheme doesn't help much.
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  #900  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2008, 6:53 AM
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The Rail 4 Real meeting went well. It was a lively exchange of ideas and opinions on the future of the campus area. I agree with the campus plan to place the rail on San Jacinto while turning Speedway into a pedestrian mall. The San Jac route would serve the Stadium, Erwin Center, Alumni center, the proposed medical school site and would meet up with the university shuttle system at 21st and Dean Keaton. It would also connect with the Mueller Development.

If only we can decide when to vote for it......
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