Salt Lake MSA Development Thread

[Future Mayor]

Every population area in the country has at least a minor form of a regional government. Congress set up MPO, metropolitan planning organizations in 1962. This organization is responsible for regional planning efforts regarding roads and transit. No local agency gets federal funding without the approval of the MPO. The MPO in Salt Lake, Davis, and Weber counties is the Wasatch Front Regional council. Utah county is the Mountainland association of governments.

We did our capstone project this past semester on regionalism. There are huge obstacles the come into play when try to regionalism governments. Is is true the some services can be improved however some services can get worse. There is a major issue regarding what organizations do you combine, which need to stay the same, and a huge issue is how exactly are you going to get all the politicians the will be out of jobs to vote themselves out of office.

Some things just simple can't be combined. There also comes into play the if you create a regional planning organization without combining into one government organization. It's not fair for the regional planning organization to designate what types of things can be built were, without compensation. Regional planning can lead to taking issue, not only on the individual property owners but to the municipality that the property is located. This leads to the need for a tax sharing policy.

It can be done, but many of the area that have done it or are seriously discussing it are mid-west cities that are suffering from population loss. These cities end up competing for companies relocating simply within the region, which as a whole only benefits the company and nobody else. The company gets the tax break and there is a wash as far as the region goes.

I think there needs to be a voluntary council of majors in the valley, this is the first step in collaboration regarding economic development issues.

There are numerous cities that are the size of Salt Lake or larger that would do anything to be in the situation that the Wasatch Front is in. Meaning overall growing economy, population increase, housing value increase, booming commercial construction. Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Toledo, Akron/Canton. Any of these cities would love to have to deal with all those aforementioned issues.

I don't see Salt Lake County combining into one government anytime in the near future. While there are some issues, I really don't see the need. As long as the population and economy continue to grow ever city along the Wasatch will grow.

[UV4EVER]

The way I see it the Wasatch Front (and Utah as a whole) could function better (and be looked upon as more important by outsiders who simply use population figures for city comparisons) if a few of the major cities were to annex some of the smaller cities around them. Based on the latest government estimates, these would be the top 10 cities in Utah, with populations:

1 Salt Lake City 558,430
2 Provo 286,803
3 Jordan 213,397
4 Sandy 167,414
5 Ogden 161,977
6 Layton 159,641
7 Lehi 108,058
8 Saint George 102,141
9 Roy 73,540
10 Bountiful 72,824

[Future Mayor]

While those numbers would be impressive, if anyone that actually makes any economic decisions based strictly on city population numbers they are idiots. Site selectors, retailers even economists make judgments and predictions based on MSA numbers. (I am not saying you are an idiot)

Depending on what areas SLC incorporated I think it would lose it's character. I could see it incorporating SSL but then the modeling agency near Market Station could be referred to as being located in SoSaLa, and I really like that, I think it sounds kinda hip, like SoHo.

What areas did you incorporate into SLC to get the 558,000?

[i-215]

Originally Posted by UV4EVER

The way I see it the Wasatch Front (and Utah as a whole) could function better (and be looked upon as more important by outsiders who simply using population figures for city comparisons) if a few of the major cities were to annex

I disagree. I lived in Portland which had annexed several cities, and it seems you trade some efficiencies for new inefficiencies. While there's an economy of scale factor, there's also a stagnation that happens when cities are no longer competing for tax dollars.

Personally, I like WFRC ... which gives the planning advantages of a unified city, while still allowing cities the freedom to do things separately if they choose. They then can voluntarily enter economy of scale agreements (ala Unified Fire Authority) but if they fail, they can always leave and choose to do it themselves (ala Cottonwood Heights Police Department).

It also gives some variety because each city has it's own look (light poles, sidewalk patters, etc.)

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by delts145

I would like to at least see Salt Lake City incorporate So. Salt Lake, Millcreek and out west up to and including Magna.

Salt Lake has incorporated the area out west up TO Magna, but not including Magna. SLC's western boundary is 7200 West, which is Magna's eastern boundary. This area of SLC is referred to as the Northwest quadrant. It will allow for a lot of future growth. Kennecott has/had plans to eventually build a village center on the western edge of SLC's boundary.

I grew up in Magna and used to think Magna should remain independent, but lately, I've been thinking it probably wouldn't be too bad if SLC incorporated Magna. It'd be a lot better than Magna being incorporated by WVC. I went to Cyprus High School and the kids who lived in WVC who went there always acted like they were better than the Magna kids, but I noticed once that the only nice parts of WVC were the areas that were closest to Magna (the area known as Hunter) which was actually basically an outgrowth of Magna.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

While those numbers would be impressive, if anyone that actually makes any economic decisions based strictly on city population numbers they are idiots. Site selectors, retailers even economists make judgments and predictions based on MSA numbers. (I am not saying you are an idiot)

I beg to differ. Federal grants are based on city population, not MSA. I was reading a brochure for new retail tenants for a new shopping center in SLC the other day and it listed the city's population, not the MSA. A lot of site selection decisions are made based on a city's population, not just MSA numbers. Also, I am constantly reading in national news articles that SLC has 180,000 or so people. That's very misleading.

Although I'm the one who proposed the entire county incorporating into SLC, I'm not even sure if I want all of those towns and cities in SLC. Do we really want Sandy to be part of Salt Lake City, for example?? I definitely agree that Millcreek and South Salt Lake should be incorporated into SLC.

[RFPCME]

Future Mayor:

"I mean lets be honest with ourselves, as far a creating another job center with highrise buildings the Proscenium project makes substantially more sense than the Gehry Lehi project."

Wrong! Asking an artist like Gehry to work on a canvas like Sandy is like asking Picasso to work only in chalk on a sidewalk--even with enormous talent and unlimited resources, the end product is still going to fade away fast in that environment.

Lehi, yes goofy old Lehi, is still somewhat unspoiled with stupid development, which is why I think a project like the Gehry project makes sense there. Moreover, Lehi is the border between the patently Utah (Utah County) and the new face of Utah, with more diverse faces and languages (Salt Lake County). Do you realize by 2025 LDS people will be in a minority in Utah, although by far and away still the largest religion. It's stunning.. the transformation the state is going through. So Lehi represents a pretty good portal into both the old and the new.

Symbolism aside, can you imagine Tom Dolan and Frank Gehry in the same room? I can't. Worse, can you imagine that idiotic politician from Sandy, Buttars or whatever his name is, and any rational person in the same room? Me either!

There is a reason why Sandy takes so much guff from so many people and why so many think that any attempt by Sandy to legitimize itself by pretending to be a city where art, culture, imagination, and education thrive is a crime against nature and common sense. Sandy made its bed, with such stupendous achievements as the Utah Auto Mall and a big-box Walmart instead of a regional park. Why would we believe that the leprosy has suddenly been cured by high-buildings? 90th So. could have been a great area. 94th So. had a chance. 106th So. could have been wonderful. 114th So (the next exit) had a chance too. But no! Each time the leadership and vision of local leaders has shown through, preferring short term gains over a true city. Ain't goin' change this time.

[Future Mayor]

You misunderstood my comments. I never suggested that the Gehry project be built in Sandy rather than Lehi. I was simply a statement, that if we are trying to conserve land and build more sustainable, than building on and around existing infrastructure in Sandy is a much more logical place to develop a more urban type environment.

So because Dolan and Buttars are idiots, and Sandy has made mistakes in the past they shouldn't be able to change directions? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Salt Lake City made mistakes too, look at how many great historic buildings have been lost or covered up with 60's facades, does that mean that SLC has made it's bed and can't have nice architecture or save remaining historic structures?

So let me get this straight, we are all pissed because they didn't build a regional park on the gravel pit, even thought it was never part of Sandy's plan it was simply a group of people that thought it would be a good idea. They allowed that center to be built partly because Lowes and Wal-mart were going to leave the city and the city would have lost a ton of tax revenue. So Sandy is evil for allowing the gravel pit to be developed to keep and increase their tax revenue, yet on the other had they are evil for wanting to create urban type density, that will increase their tax base also. So basically according to some people Sandy is wrong no matter what they do.

Look I'm not fan of Sandy, will never live there, and I think Tom Dolan and Chris Buttars are douche bags, but come on people get over your attitude of everything Sandy does wether suburban style or urban style is wrong and evil. It's the same mentality that some people will refuse to go to a Real game because the stadium will be in Sandy, when in the long term if the team fails it doesn't reflect on Sandy it reflects on the entire metro as a place that can't support sports, and we'll never get that MLB or NFL team we would all love to get.

[Stenar]

I'd like to point out that while Sandy has lots of douche bags: Tom Dolan, Nancy Workman, Greg Curtis, etc., Chris Buttars is not one of them. Buttars is a douche bag, but he lives in and represents West Jordan.

[urbanboy]

Chris Buttars... what a DOUCHE BAG!

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I'd like to point out that while Sandy has lots of douche bags: Tom Dolan, Nancy Workman, Greg Curtis, etc., Chris Buttars is not one of them. Buttars is a douche bag, but he lives in and represents West Jordan.

Maybe I just assumed since he was a Douche Bag that he must have been from Sandy.

[cololi]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

So Sandy is evil for allowing the gravel pit to be developed to keep and increase their tax revenue, yet on the other had they are evil for wanting to create urban type density, that will increase their tax base also. So basically according to some people Sandy is wrong no matter what they do.

I don't think they are eveil, just wrong. They are proceeding based on the almighty dollar, which to Sandy's defense, is what most cities do. But local communities need to stand up to a higher calling and realize that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

I think Sandy would probably be okay with a density somewhere in between the uber low density (around 5-6 DU per acre) suburban srawl that they are now and some middle intensity density (20-30 DU's per acre). Once they have the households, then they could probably support a more intense city center if they plan for it and stick to their guns.

[UTAZLoVer]

Thinking of Sandy makes me yawn.

[NYC Rick]

Originally Posted by UV4EVER

The way I see it the Wasatch Front (and Utah as a whole) could function better (and be looked upon as more important by outsiders who simply use population figures for city comparisons) if a few of the major cities were to annex some of the smaller cities around them. Based on the latest government estimates, these would be the top 10 cities in Utah, with populations:

1 Salt Lake City 558,430
2 Provo 286,803
3 Jordan 213,397
4 Sandy 167,414
5 Ogden 161,977
6 Layton 159,641
7 Lehi 108,058
8 Saint George 102,141
9 Roy 73,540
10 Bountiful 72,824

1 Salt Lake City 558,430

If someone were to truly define the interaction of suburbs and satellite communities then legitimately SLC would be much larger than you state.

The truth is that every place outside of SLC basically is there because of their interaction with Salt Lake City. Yes, there are nurturing cores that are stepping up but as many other cities have done to bring up their statistical value as viewed by the US government, they basically have made the primary county the city.

I am not stating that SLC should be that drastic as places like Sandy and very few others have their own satellites. However Salt Lake City...to use a lame and overly used euphemism...is the straw that stirs the whole drink.

This is the reason that cities like Oklahoma City and Jacksonville among a more than a few others rank in the top 20 and under of populous cities in the USA. In truth SLC dwarfs these places if overall populace were considered.

They also garner grant monies and government subsidies and funding because they do this.

Why pretend that SLC has had around 181,000 people since the 1960's? That is how it is ranked and it is also one of the reasons that people really treat SLC as a city that is not large enough to be taken seriously.

Do you know that for 20 years SLC has not been ranked in the World Almanac ( a great source book). Take a look at the almanac and look at the many cities that do rank with higher population than SLC. It is almost hilarious. This is how many people judge what city is important and which one is not. That certainly does not help SLC.

[wrendog]

I find it funny that the World Almanac has a section of the top populous cities and does a rundown of tv stations, hospitals, airports etc. It looks stupid to include places like Mesa, Aurora, Glendale etc. Suburbs should not count.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by NYC Rick

1 Salt Lake City 558,430

If someone were to truly define the interaction of suburbs and satellite communities then legitimately SLC would be much larger than you state.

The truth is that every place outside of SLC basically is there because of their interaction with Salt Lake City. Yes, there are nurturing cores that are stepping up but as many other cities have done to bring up their statistical value as viewed by the US government, they basically have made the primary county the city.

I am not stating that SLC should be that drastic as places like Sandy and very few others have their own satellites. However Salt Lake City...to use a lame and overly used euphemism...is the straw that stirs the whole drink.

This is the reason that cities like Oklahoma City and Jacksonville among a more than a few others rank in the top 20 and under of populous cities in the USA. In truth SLC dwarfs these places if overall populace were considered.

They also garner grant monies and government subsidies and funding because they do this.

Why pretend that SLC has had around 181,000 people since the 1960's? That is how it is ranked and it is also one of the reasons that people really treat SLC as a city that is not large enough to be taken seriously.

Do you know that for 20 years SLC has not been ranked in the World Almanac ( a great source book). Take a look at the almanac and look at the many cities that do rank with higher population than SLC. It is almost hilarious. This is how many people judge what city is important and which one is not. That certainly does not help SLC.

Great points, NYC Rick.

If the entire Salt Lake county incorporated into Salt Lake City, the city would immediately jump into the category of the top 10 cities in America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

San Antonio is listed as the 7th largest city in the USA but that's because it's city boundaries are bigger than Salt Lake county and include 1.144 million people. Despite being considered one of the top 10 cities, it's MSA is listed as the 28th largest. Their MSA is larger in area than the Wasatch Front and covers 8 counties, but smaller than the Wasatch Front in population.

The Wasatch Front should be listed as one MSA, but is split into 3 MSAs because of the fairly large cities Ogden and Provo (above 100,000 pop.) anchoring their respective MSAs. There are no other large cities near San Antonio. The next largest city in the San Antonio MSA is New Braunfels at 51,066 pop.

So, in reality San Antonio is smaller than SLC.

[delts145]

I hear ya Stenar, and in certain respects it's a pain in the butt. We've gone the rounds often with forumers in other cities that wanted to somehow pretend that the metro Wasatch didn't have over 2.2 million people. This was particularly true with many refusing to acknowledge that Utah Valley and Salt Lake Valley are now connected physically by actual development.

.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

So basically according to some people Sandy is wrong no matter what they do.

Look I'm not fan of Sandy, will never live there, and I think Tom Dolan and Chris Buttars are douche bags, but come on people get over your attitude of everything Sandy does wether suburban style or urban style is wrong and evil. It's the same mentality that some people will refuse to go to a Real game because the stadium will be in Sandy, when in the long term if the team fails it doesn't reflect on Sandy it reflects on the entire metro as a place that can't support sports, and we'll never get that MLB or NFL team we would all love to get.

Thank you. It's nice to see some of us can see the bigger picture. And that is why I support RSL.

[cololi]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Great points, NYC Rick.

If the entire Salt Lake county incorporated into Salt Lake City, the city would immediately jump into the category of the top 10 cities in America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

But only if any of those other cities on the list did not include their suburban communities as well. I see Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Denver, Las Vegas, etc. with fairly sizeable suburbs that aren't included in their populations either.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by cololi

But only if any of those other cities on the list did not include their suburban communities as well. I see Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Denver, Las Vegas, etc. with fairly sizeable suburbs that aren't included in their populations either.

I don't mind if SLC is not in the top 10. I just think the Wasatch Front should count as one MSA and SLC's population should be listed as larger than 180,000.