Canadian Retail Thread

[neilson]

Originally Posted by kirjtc2

One of the possibilities are that the downtown Bay stores would be cut in half, with the other half becoming L&T. Makes some sense to me.

Looks like there will be a lot fewer Zellers stores once this is all said and done...no closings, just rebrandings. Some (the ones in the bigger malls) may go up to L&T, the tiny and small-town-nowhere ones to some new brand.

And eventually, you may see middle of the road Zellers locations go to Target.

[miketoronto]

Saddest day in Canadian history almost for retail that is.

I think the Lord and Taylor take over is just bad news all around. Canada can basically say goodbye to having anything Canadian owned in the retail world. How do you like that. A country can't even keep its last department store and most historical company Canadian. Sell out to the Americans yet again.

And this is the worst part. We can basically say goodbye to the grand old downtown department stores in our Canadian downtowns that have remained retail icons and landmarks. L&T already said alot of the stores are oversized.
That is total American thinking, and I have no doubt they will downsize the stores to the size of suburban mall branch stores. People will not get any better selection at the downtown store, and will stop going, and you will have the classic American issue of a downtown department store that offers nothing better than a suburban branch store, and people will not make a trek to go downtown.
The worst thing for a downtown retail district is to have an American company operating a department store. They can't wait to pull the downsize talk. And as far as I am concerned it will be the downsizing that will do in these grand old stores.


Canada really needs to stand up and stop this takeover of our companies by international groups.

The days for the Bay Queen Street are probably numbered as North America's second largest department store. I bet L&T can't wait to cut half of that store off, and make it no better than a suburban branch store. One only need look at the downtown L&T stores in American cities besides the NYC one, to see they are no better than a suburban store. And than they wonder why people don't make the trek downtown to shop(as they complained in Pittsburgh before closing that store).

You take the smaller stores like Calgary Downtown or Vancouver Downtown which are only in the 500,000 sq foot range. Cut those in half, and the store will be no larger than a suburban mall store. Actually they will be smaller, as many suburban Bay stores can top the 300,000 mark.

[SpongeG]

HBC has been owned by Americans for a few years prior to this sale though

time to shed a tear was a few years back

[mersar]

It isn't news that its owned by Americans, that happened years ago now.

[IntotheWest]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Saddest day in Canadian history almost for retail that is.

Do you shop there miketoronto? I mean, all the time?

It's no doubt department stores have faced stiff competition with a lot of the brands they sell opening their own smaller stores. But, if you've spent even a small amount of time in the US department stores - Macy's, Nieman Marcus, Nordstrom, etc...you'd have some idea how bad the Bay has looked for years (with, possibly the downtown Toronto store as an exception - which, really is on its own with selection, displays, etc). Heck, even Sears "looks" better in the last 10 years since most have renovated.

I used to shop at the Bay (and Eaton's) almost exclusively 20 years ago...but not any more. History is history - and that will never change. I don't need to keep the Bay around just because of that connection...we need a good department store - or the Bay reinvented.

[yyzer]

Saddest day in Canadian history almost for retail that is.

Haven't spent a dime in any Bay store in years....is there a reason to shop there? Anyways, in the latest press release, they are saying that no Bay stores will close - they will only get better under the new ownership....

And actually, no offense, Mike, but I use you as a contrarian indicator, as you are almost always off in your conclusions....

This is then possibly the BEST day ever for Canadian retailing...

[SpongeG]

Yikes! The Brooks Brothers suit is on its way to Vancouver

Venerable haberdasher chooses city as its first Canadian beachhead

But JFK aside, Washington is a boring town. Who dresses like that here on the West Coast? Look around. Do you see many Hollywood types wearing Brooks, other than in a film like Pearl Harbour where they are playing dead men?

Hang on. After checking out the company's website, let me rephrase that bit. Some A-list stars have indeed been known to wear Brooks Brothers. It's just that most of them are dead.

Here's a certified list, straight from the company: "Cary Grant, Gary Cooper, Douglas Fairbanks, Sr., Rudolph Valentino, Errol Flynn, Rudy Vallee and John Barrymore were some of the best-dressed men of their time, and all were Brooks Brothers customers."

Oh, there's one woman, too: "Katharine Hepburn, one of the first Hollywood starlets to don trousers, headed to Brooks Brothers for her tailoring."

So what did we do in Vancouver to deserve this tired cultural import from the United States? Well, it appears we're on the world map. As the demand for the Brooks suit seems well sated to the south, the Brooks company is now being run by a stylish Italian, Claudio del Vecchio. He wants to grow the line here. He is going global and trying to spruce up Brooks Brothers yesteryear image.

Vancouver -- now much on the European mind given its scores on global livability surveys -- is part of del Vecchio's expansion plan that will see Brooks flagship stores pop up in Milan, Paris and Hong Kong. Supposedly in this global push, the Italians are smartening up the Brooks Brother Suit. They are even daring to charge as much as for its new, high-end stuff as Giorgio Armani does.

Maybe, I'm wrong to be so down on a suit. Maybe it'll be different here with the Italians running the show.

But 190 years of history are on my side. As every American Willy Loman can tell you, a Brooks Brothers Suit is irresistible, but it makes life a bit greyer. Just what Vancouver doesn't need.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/...2d2bb773-7e0b-4afe-bf35-44cd5dcb21f9&p=2

Brooks Brothers to Expand Into Canada Next Year, Globe Reports

July 14 (Bloomberg) -- Brooks Brothers plans to expand into Canada next year, betting that men looking for suits averaging $900 each are underserved by domestic competitors, The Globe and Mail reported.

The men's apparel chain, which has about 350 locations globally, is planning to open as many as 12 outlets in Canada, starting in Vancouver, Toronto and Calgary, the report said. Brooks Brother is owned by Retail Brand Alliance Inc.

Brooks Brothers will market itself in Canada as a brand between apparel chains Moores Retail Group Inc. and the ``higher end'' Harry Rosen, the Globe reported.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=alUqnfunOIoA&refer=canada

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/

they have some pricey accessories... should do well with the label set


18-Karat Gold Dress Watch
$12000.00


Gentleman's Alligator Dress Watch
$2500.00


Alligator Soft Frame Bag
$8000.00


Alligator Handbag
$5500.00

[miketoronto]

The Bay had an American share holder owning mostly all its stocks. That is different from an American company fully taking over The Bay.

Also one of the first words was "downsize" of stores. That is not good, and I am telling you, they are going to kill the unque style of the downtown stores and turn them into smaller suburban style branch outlets.
American companies do not know how to operate legendary downtown stores anymore.

And for a matter of fact I do shop at the Bay alot. I only shop at the downtown Toronto Bay. But I find they have a ton of great stuff and are not out of date like some of you claim. The selection and style at the downtown store is amazing. And to think L&T could come in now and shrink that and ruin it is sad.

I have been to Macy's. And if you guys actually did shop at Macy's in the USA, and The Bay here, you would see that both stores carry almost the same brands. I do not find Macy's to be any better in most regards.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Saddest day in Canadian history almost for retail that is.

I think the Lord and Taylor take over is just bad news all around. Canada can basically say goodbye to having anything Canadian owned in the retail world. How do you like that. A country can't even keep its last department store and most historical company Canadian. Sell out to the Americans yet again.

And this is the worst part. We can basically say goodbye to the grand old downtown department stores in our Canadian downtowns that have remained retail icons and landmarks. L&T already said alot of the stores are oversized.
That is total American thinking, and I have no doubt they will downsize the stores to the size of suburban mall branch stores. People will not get any better selection at the downtown store, and will stop going, and you will have the classic American issue of a downtown department store that offers nothing better than a suburban branch store, and people will not make a trek to go downtown.
The worst thing for a downtown retail district is to have an American company operating a department store. They can't wait to pull the downsize talk. And as far as I am concerned it will be the downsizing that will do in these grand old stores.


Canada really needs to stand up and stop this takeover of our companies by international groups.

The days for the Bay Queen Street are probably numbered as North America's second largest department store. I bet L&T can't wait to cut half of that store off, and make it no better than a suburban branch store. One only need look at the downtown L&T stores in American cities besides the NYC one, to see they are no better than a suburban store. And than they wonder why people don't make the trek downtown to shop(as they complained in Pittsburgh before closing that store).

You take the smaller stores like Calgary Downtown or Vancouver Downtown which are only in the 500,000 sq foot range. Cut those in half, and the store will be no larger than a suburban mall store. Actually they will be smaller, as many suburban Bay stores can top the 300,000 mark.

HBC is already American.

Better to have some fresh investment/management, then to see the company fold entirely, a la Eaton's (Eaton, in Quebec: the catastrophic apostrophe)

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

HBC is already American.

Better to have some fresh investment/management, then to see the company fold entirely, a la Eaton's (Eaton, in Quebec: the catastrophic apostrophe)

Different to have an American owner. But this is a huge corportation. Also different to have an owner who is just going to revive the stores, instead of downsizing them.

Don't tell me a major city like Toronto has to downsize The Bay Queen. That was the headline in the paper today. They are already talking about breaking that building up.
Funny how a city of half a million could support a million sq foot store. But now that we have over 2.5 million, the store has to be smaller.
sorry, but I do not trust American's with downtown retail. They do a bad job for the most part, and care nothing about what these stores stand for or their history.

Let David Jones or Myer from Australia take over the HBC. Atleast those two companies understand the value of downtown stores, and instead of downsizing have
improved and even in some cases expanded the downtown stores.

[MolsonExport]

^I was very sad to see the demise of the downtown Eaton in Montreal. It was the second-largest dept store in North America, after Macy's in NYC.

But through bad management, and changing consumer tastes and geodemographics, they could no longer make a go of it. Sad, but that is the way that retailing works (in marketing, we have a theory called the "Wheel of Retailing"...go check it out).

It is a business decision. Of course, you are free to disagree with it.

Beats having some Canadian-born loony muck things up. Remember Robert Campeau?

[miketoronto]

I totally disagree that these stores can not make it. Cities around the world including ones in Australia, right on down to London, Paris, etc all support massive stores the size of some of our Bay stores. The only difference is, the companies in those cities actually work at making those stores legendary and the best they can be.

American companies could care less, and lets be honest, don't know how to operate urban stores anymore. Canada's downtowns have a sad day ahead when this new company decides that our cities deserve no better than a branch suburban style store in the heart of our retail cores. No matter if you shop at the Bay or not, you can not deny the fact they are important anchors to our downtown retail cores.


I could care less about the suburban stores. But it is the messing around with the "real" Bay stores downtown that is the issue.

[Acajack]

To express miketoronto’s point differently, American department store chains are more Darwinian in outlook and less civic-minded. For the most part, they all have (and retain and even expand) lavish, expansive downtown stores in places like Midtown Manhattan because those stores tend to flourish. But unlike Canadian chains like The Bay and Eaton often did, they won’t keep large stores in downtown areas just because they’ve always been there and it is unthinkable not to have a large Bay on, for example, Rideau St. in Ottawa.

So if the store works – great. If not – too bad, so sad. During New York’s tough years, even Manhattan itself was unserved by certain major American retailers that would have (you would have thought) logically had a presence in the downtown of the country’s largest city.

Reading this thread I can’t help but think of the downtown stores (not just in Paris) of French chains like Galeries Lafayette and Printemps, or El Corte Inglés in Spain…

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Let David Jones or Myer from Australia take over the HBC. Atleast those two companies understand the value of downtown stores, and instead of downsizing have
improved and even in some cases expanded the downtown stores.

Funny enough, I was going to mention David Jones and Myer in addition to the French and Spanish chains, but ended up leaving them out.

I can remember visiting Australia some years ago and walking into DJs and Myer, and thinking, yeah these are like The Bay and Eaton’s back home (they especially reminded me of the Montreal stores on Ste-Catherine). Since then, Eaton’s has disappeared and who knows what will happen to The Bay.

BTW, the Ogilvy store on Ste-Catherine still has that big city department store feel.

[miketoronto]

This has nothing to do with the stores not making money.

The guy who bought The Bay now, is interested in the properties.

Do you know he is in the process of downsizing the Lord & Taylor store in Manhattan. He wants to cut it in half to the size of a suburban branch store, and build condos on the remaining floors.
Sorry guys, but don't tell me a legendary store in Manhattan that has been operating for over 100 years has to be downsized to a store that will be smaller than similar style department stores in other world cities. I don't buy that, and it just shows they are worried more about making money off the property.

The Bay would not keep a store open if it is not making money. The Downtown stores make money. And they make money because they continue to offer a large selection and unique downtown style.

The only stores that were not making money were the downtown stores in smaller cities like Kitchener, and Peterborough. That is what did EATONS in partly.

I worked in retail though when EATONS was going down and we dealt with suppliers that supplied the downtown Toronto EATONS, and they even said that store was a money magnet. They said that store did great, and they did not understand how SEARS ruined it, because they could have made money at that location.

And The Bay did close stores that were not doing well downtown. They downsized the Downtown Winnipeg Bay, and they closed the downtown Edmonton Bay and opened a much smaller suburban style store downtown instead.

But do not tell me Queen Street is not making money and can't keep its current size. Go into that store on a Saturday and it can be packed. Sure the furniture floor won't be wall to wall people. But that store does good. They just need to restore it more and add even more selection and style and they could get even more people in.

I have a book about downtown renewal at home, and they even have a section that talks about how American department store companies have on purpose killed downtown stores. Dillards the most famous in that regard. But Lord & Taylor no better. They sucked Pittsburgh for millions in development money, and built a store downtown that was smaller than a suburban store. They then complained that no one wanted to come downtown to shop and closed the store, and Pittsburgh lost out on gaining back the development money. That is what happens when you build a store downtown that is only like 100,000 sq feet.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

This has nothing to do with the stores not making money.

The Bay would not keep a store open if it is not making money. The Downtown stores make money.

True, it's not about making money, full stop. It's about making *enough* money, or the most money possible.

[IntotheWest]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

And for a matter of fact I do shop at the Bay alot. I only shop at the downtown Toronto Bay. But I find they have a ton of great stuff and are not out of date like some of you claim.

Ah...well, there's your first problem with seeing the bigger picture...Toronto's downtown store is the Bay's flagship store - it has a selection unique to it, and NO other Bay stores - regardless of being downtown or suburban. In fact, I believe the Yorkdale store has the same selection - and is treated on the same level - as the other city's downtown stores. Truly, the Bay downtown Toronto can almost compete with Holt for some things (trust me, I've spent hours just waiting for my wife in the shoe department there). One of my friend's partners was the store product managers of the store in downtown Calgary - and we had this exact discussion of the downtown TO store being different...he had plans to bring Calgary "closer" to the level of selection and service - but that never happened (and he has since moved to the Chinook store).

The other Bay stores don't compete with the big Dept stores in the US - in terms of service, product, and just plain old "looks". You're right, Macy's would come close - but, I've found that even they have a better selection. Nordstrom's, Nieman Marcus, etc are definitely on a different level.

The biggest problem with the Bay is they haven't quite figured out how to fill the gap between a dept store like Sears, and one like Holt (which, is growing quite well - and easily compares to the same level of dept store in the US). They continue to add cheap line of clothes over the years (some available at Zellers too I believe), and the service has gone down. Heck, even since the Americans took over, they thought introducing the new yellow bags would look more sophisticated (or something silly like that). The "Made in China" Olympic wear is an embarrasment - that's if you can find it, since its not proudly displayed in the stores.

Sorry, Miketoronto. The Bay needs to change, or just go. And drop the crappy Target-looking Zellers along the way too.

[IntotheWest]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^I was very sad to see the demise of the downtown Eaton in Montreal. It was the second-largest dept store in North America, after Macy's in NYC.

Interesting...do you have sq footage #s for that? I always thought the Bay Downtown Toronto was the largest (at just over 1 million Sq Ft I believe), and Winnipeg's Eaton's or the Bay was the second largest in the country. I'm sure Winnipeg's Eaton's was the second largest Eaton's, anyway.

[miketoronto]

Nordstrom's and Nieman Marcus are not really full line department stores like The Bay or Macy's.

Also I don't want the Bay to go fully upper class. We need a middle class place to shop to. I think The Bay right now has good middle class and upper class selection, atleast in the downtown store.

That is fine if this owner wants to make the stores better. But carving up the downtown stores is not the answer. How are you suppose to make a better store by cutting it in half and basically cutting in half what you will carry. People are not going to come downtown to shop at a store that is the same size as the one at the mall and features the same selection.

I guess no more Christmas Street, where they take a large part of one floor in the downtown store, and turn it into a huge Christmas store. They won't have the room.

[IntotheWest]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Nordstrom's and Nieman Marcus are not really full line department stores like The Bay or Macy's.

Also I don't want the Bay to go fully upper class. We need a middle class place to shop to. I think The Bay right now has good middle class and upper class selection, atleast in the downtown store.

Again - read my post in FULL above - the downtown store in TO is VERY unique.

The other Bay's do NOT fill that "middle class" place to shop, and has very little to no "upper class" selection.

You're right that Nordstrom's and Nieman Marcus aren't "full line" department stores - but they are department stores. This is the part where the Bay needs to wake up, and re-invent itself. The days of needing a "full line" department store are gone. Even Sears has successfully moved a large chunk of their "other" stuff to new independant furniture/appliance stores.

When was the last time you shopped for a washer/dryer? Downtown Toronto? See my point?