Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[markbarbera]

Mr. Mancinelli must really think Hamiltonians are a bunch of morons. Here he is now saying that things will move quicker with private involvement instead of having to deal with a 'meddling' city.

Right. A bit of revisionist history going on here. In May 2006, Mancinelli was saying he needed the involvement of the city in order to kick start phase one of the project, because private involvement was hesitant to move on the project.

He's also threatening to put LIUNA's 'other downtown development plans' on hold. I can also imagine little Joey as a child picking up his soccer ball and going home whenever he was losing the game. Besides, has LIUNA's downtown's 'plans' ever been anything but on hold?

Mr. Mancinelli now has to face the excutive (and general membership) of LIUNA and explain how he could mess up such a sweet deal. I have a feeling that blaming the city will not go over well behind those closed doors. I really think it would be in his best interest to follow Mr. McMeekin's advice and suck it up and close the deal.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by flar

It almost restores my faith in the general population

But internet polls aren't anything to draw conclusions with. It seem like not too many have voted if it can sway back and forth that much.

No, but it's great for perception, and perception is everything (almost).

[highwater]

Originally Posted by matt602

I'm sure the populace of SSP Hamilton had something to do with that number

I only voted once, I swear.

Now everyone get over to Hallmarks and put in your two cents.

[flar]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

I'm on board and will write a letter now. Does anyone think cc'ing Mancinelli would be a good move or bad move?

I'm torn on whether to cc Mancinelli, or not. I sometimes feel that someone gains an understanding when they see others taking an interest, but I'm not so sure that will help in LIUNA's case. Opinions??

it might not be a bad idea, just to show him there are citizens willing to fight for the building. In the article today, Mancinelli says they will oppose designation of the Thomas bldg and fight for loosening the heritage requirements for Lister.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

I encourage everyone to send letters to Heritage Minister Aileen Carroll asking her to designate the building - your letters really do make a difference! Here's a copy of the letter I sent yesterday:

http://raisethehammer.org/blog/1040/

Yup. That'll be my project for today. That and teaching my son that a 9 iron is an OUTSIDE toy.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by flar

it might not be a bad idea, just to show him there are citizens willing to fight for the building. In the article today, Mancinelli says they will oppose designation of the Thomas bldg and fight for loosening the heritage requirements for Lister.

I don't know about cc'ing Mancinelli, but it couldn't hurt to cc your councillor and the Mayor's office. They definitely need to know there are citizens who care enough, and are informed enough, to take action.

[FairHamilton]

Here's my letter, I'll take any feedback/input before I send it to Minister Carroll.

The Honourable Aileen Carroll,
Minister of Culture
Ministry of Culture
900 Bay Street
5th Floor, Mowat
Toronto, Ontario M7A 1L2
Re: Hamilton Lister Block

Dear Minister Carroll,

Earlier this week negotiations between The City of Hamilton and Labourers’ International Union of North America (LIUNA) ended without reaching an agreement to restore Hamilton’s historic Lister Block.

In light of the Ontario Heritage Trust’s conclusion that the Lister Block is a provincially significant building, it’s important the Ontario Government move quickly to designate the Lister Block as a provincial heritage site.

Quoting from the Ministry of Culture’s website: Our heritage tells us who we are, where we have come from and what we have accomplished. It is a source of strength and confidence that puts the changes of society into perspective and helps us to build a better future.

I’m asking you to uphold the Ministry of Culture’s message, and support the Ontario Heritage Trust conclusion, by immediately designating the Lister Building as a provincial heritage site.

[highwater]

Great. You might also add that LIUNA has a valid demolition permit, so there is a very real fear of demolition if the province doesn't act. (I'm sure she's aware of this, but doesn't hurt to mention it.)

[flar]

I already wrote her a quick letter the other day:


RE: Lister Block in Hamilton

Dear Minister,
I urge you to take immediate action regarding the Lister Block in Hamilton. A demolition company has installed scaffolding around the entire building. With the latest deal falling through, there is an immediate threat that this irreplaceable part of our heritage will be lost forever. Please designate the Lister Block as a heritage property and take any other actions necessary to protect the building from demolition and/or demolition by neglect.

[FairHamilton]

A few minor adjustments and sent by email. I also sent a hard copy to her office at 900 Bay Street, and will see about dropping one off at her constituency office in Barrie on my way to Muskoka tomorrow.

[matt602]

The fact that they are outright fighting the heritage designation on the Thomas building and trying to get the restrictions on the Lister loosened, just boils my blood. This says plain and simply that they do not have any intention to restore any part of the block and would very much like to flatten whatever they possibly can. We all predicted this attitude as well. It's totally the "taking my toys and leaving" attitude. Pathetic and immature.

[fastcarsfreedom]

There is plenty of revisionist history going on here--on all sides. LIUNA stated from the outset that their intent was to demolish the building and build new--followed by a combination of proposals for partial retention of the building (facade)--and ultimately restoration--following the...ummm..."intervention" of the Province. While I have always preferred the full restoration option--LIUNA reverting to a demolition/replacement proposal would not be "taking my toys and leaving"--they would be returning to an original proposal for the property...one which may/may not be more cost effective. Demolition and replacement with a viable project bests another 10 years of abandonment in my books, though I may be in the minority here. I especially love the claims that downtown renewal doesn't hinge on Lister--I agree in principle--however, renewal lives and dies on projects LIKE Lister--saying otherwise is purely naive--and I've heard the same refrain time and time again...when Eatons closed, when the Royal Connaught closed, when Stelco left, etc. In that sense Lister is a keystone--and the current situation is, I repeat, representative of a TOTALITY OF FAILURE on the part of all the stakeholders.

As for the future--I wish those who hope to preserve the Lister well...it will be an uphill battle. The money for private sector projects (with apparently no committed anchor tenant) is scarce, and the business case for adding office space downtown is questionable...though the office market has improved marginally and Class A space is still relatively scarce--we have discussed many times Lister's inadequacies when it comes to modern office conversion.

My guess is that LIUNA will either cut their losses and sell (or attempt to sell) the properties or will move to demolish the structures in short order...there may be a better business case from a private-sector perspective for a cleared site. LIUNA changed their proposals numerous times--true--but please don't suggest the City was the picture of steadfast decisiveness.

There is no positive in any of this, I'm sorry to say. Thanks to two parties (LIUNA/Hi-Rise and the City of Hamilton) this deal could not get done and downtown and the business owners in the vicinty of the site are the real losers. For better or worse this building COULD have been viable and filled with people--but now, it will not...and no, it's not the media's fault either.

[FairHamilton]

^If LIUNA demolishes they won't rebuild. What are they going to put in offices, retail, rental/condo's?? All those are things that downtown is not ready to absorb at this time. Ultimately LIUNA is in the game for a profit, not community building so they are not going to make unwise business decisions even if they benefit the community (at this stage that's fairly evident).

The best thing to happen is the building sits empty and maintained to property standards, until things turn around in downtown Hamilton. When do I think things will turn around?? If managed properly 10 - 12 years, yes you read the timeline right 10 - 12 years. And there's the caveat of "managed properly". Can the city do that, well that remains to be seen.......

Right now I don't think LIUNA should get an easy ride. They've brought scorn on themselves and should manage what they've wrought.

[MsMe]

I wonder if they tore it down possibly they might make it into a paid parking lot? They could make more money on the lot possibly if they did that.

[Millstone]

Isn't there a moratorium on new lots? And if they do, I'm moving.

[MsMe]

Not sure how the legal stuff would work. Especially in a case like this I wouldn't doubt there would be certain legalities. Good point.

[fastcarsfreedom]

It's easy and convenient (and popular here) to lay the blame solely at the feet of LIUNA. Applying the logic that they should "manage what they wrought"--how do you feel about LIUNA station? Would James Street North (and downtown in general) be a better place if the CN station was still in the state of the neglect it was in prior to LIUNA's restoration of it?

Secondly, while I agree that downtown may be able to absorb grander projects in the future--that assumption is based on the fact that the vacancy of the Lister won't have an ongoing adverse impact on that which surrounds it--I'm reasonably sure the business owners in the immediate district around it are already pretty tired of co-existing with it and the problems associated with it's dormancy...not to mention that massive psychological (and practical) impact it has on the ability of others to stimulate (and secure financing) for other downtown projects. Imagine, for a moment, that Yale decided to market the old BMO Pavillion to prospective tenants--imagine the selling point that view would be. Suggesting anything to the contrary (that the district will THRIVE with this hulk in it's midst) ignores absolutely everything the history of cities in North America has taught us over the past decades...decay creeps.)

Action is needed on this--advocating inaction will not--and taking a quick mental inventory of the other properties which have laid vacant downtown--I have yet to see one that has been maintained in such a way that it does not decay over time--it's a practical inevitability--particularly so in a harsh climate. Extraordinary measures can be taken--but I don't see any private sector players stepping up to keep the heat on in an abandoned building--perhaps the city (via it's taxpayers) is interested in becoming a patron of abandoned buildings--but I highly doubt it.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by Millstone

Isn't there a moratorium on new lots? And if they do, I'm moving.

Yes, there is a bylaw that you can't tear down a building and establish a parking lot. Currently, the old HMP site is being investigated for a breach of that bylaw.

[MsMe]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

Currently, the old HMP site is being investigated for a breach of that bylaw.

I hadn't looked at that property in a long time so I didn't know what happened to it.

Hmm, interesting.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

It's easy and convenient (and popular here) to lay the blame solely at the feet of LIUNA. Applying the logic that they should "manage what they wrought"--how do you feel about LIUNA station? Would James Street North (and downtown in general) be a better place if the CN station was still in the state of the neglect it was in prior to LIUNA's restoration of it?

No problem with LIUNA Station, they purchased a building which they could develop. Purchasing a building they couldn't develop privately (i.e. Lister) that's their problem, not taxpayers. And you know if they can't profitably develop that property most likely no else can. So, like it or not the Lister will remain vacant until something (more than 1 thing) changes in downtown Hamilton.

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Action is needed on this--advocating inaction will not--and taking a quick mental inventory of the other properties which have laid vacant downtown--I have yet to see one that has been maintained in such a way that it does not decay over time--it's a practical inevitability--particularly so in a harsh climate.

That corresponds with my call to enforce property standards. Something the City of Hamilton apparently isn't very good at enforcing. I say that with first hand knowledge, as my fight to have property standards enforced on a vacant property 2 doors from my home. 4+ weeks from my complaint, 3 weeks from it being put into the system and still no action............. BTW, that lag has allowed the raccoons living in the house to start raising a family, and I'm beginning to wonder if their young ones will start their families before action is taken on the property.......

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Extraordinary measures can be taken--but I don't see any private sector players stepping up to keep the heat on in an abandoned building--perhaps the city (via it's taxpayers) is interested in becoming a patron of abandoned buildings--but I highly doubt it.

Didn't the city prove they weren't the patron of abandoned buildings this week. And if the city is going to add to a glut of office space in the city, why would other private landlords want to operate in an environment when the government undermines their drive for greater occupancy?