Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[wrendog]

7 years to finish a 5 mile line????

[RC14]

^
I know, to me that sounds like way more then enough time, but what do I know?
I'm just glad it's finaly happening, we've been hearing about it for a long time and frankly I think this line should have been completed by now.

[ski_steve]

Yea it does sound like way too much time to finish it. But they are building 3 lines at the same time, and Frontrunner, I think. So i guess I could wait a little longer for all of these lines. Yay for 2015!!

[skyguy414]

Originally Posted by NYC Rick

What I wrote about yesterday...Stewart Airport near Newburgh New York is basically what you were hoping for in saying NYC needs ONE airport to support the area.

Yet it is nearly 40 miles North on the West side of the Hudson River. No mass transit as I mentioned before. If they used light rail or commuter trains it would be non stop forever. I do not think a lot of people would tolerate it. I mean it would have to be a Japanese bullet train. However, with the amount of people who would use one airport, it would be a nightmare...not even mentioning what the here to there cost would be on the ground.

It does have the space (Former AFB and now a local airport like Westchester), It has lots of space to develop. However, I see the 3 International airport being used forever.

Newark: I do not know if you have used it, really is a breeze to use.

On your JFK point regarding not understanding what the future of air travel would become. No one anywhere could have imagined it. How could they? The thing is that in the 1940's NYC was still 7 million people in the city proper. It has not grown much as a proper city limit but it has blown up within 10 miles in every direction (almost 22 million) in an area that is metro SLC plus Davis county.

When they designed JFK they totally underestimated but it was still in an urban area where people lived. I think they made the right choices in looking at old plans and images of the city. Yet, if was not as much NYC underestimating as the rest of the country (and world) growing up, NYC is one of THE very few super major cities in the world. It is not going to change...in the same way London, Tokyo etc are not going to change.

Tokyo's idea of Narita is very interesting. Build a mega airport off shore. But in today's world economy, I would not even want to think of the cost. There are many better things they could do with the money in this world and I am most definitely NOT talking about the stupid war with its pointless loss of life.

What I meant when I said NYC would be better off with one airport, is it would have been nice if there was a centrally located spot where a very large airport could be built to accommodate all the demand. This is obviously not possible for NYC, I was just merely pointing out what ideally and theoretically would have been the best option. I have seen the Stewart Airport plan but I think building an airport to replace all airports 40 miles away from NYC would be very difficult for the very reasons you pointed out, including ground transportation to the airport. Getting people to want to either drive or use a high speed train to an airport 40 mi would definitely be a challenge for NYC.

One reason one big airport is better than three smaller (but still large) ones is it makes controlling airspace much easier. When you have three large airports in close proximity to each other, you have planes departing one airport which are encroaching on the other airport's airspace. Thus it affects how planes are able to depart and land at the airport and usually requires some complex and rather lengthy departure or arrival procedures for aircraft to follow. This limits the number of aircraft that can be in the air over a certain area at a given time and also means planes burn more fuel, costing the airlines more money, and passengers more money. This is why the NYC airspace is considered the bottleneck of the national airspace system. It is why the FAA is putting limits on the number of flights that can be scheduled during peak hours at the NYC airports.

A one airport operation allows a much more consistent and orderly flow of aircraft arriving and departing. As I mentioned in a previous post, the Atlanta airport (again, busiest airport in the world) is able to do this fairly well and just has a constant stream of planes taking off and landing all day long. The FAA doesn’t need to limit the number of flights there because it is able to be managed better.

You mentioned off-shore airports. Osaka’s Kansai Airport is the offshore airport you are probably thinking of. Narita was built in a more rural farmland area outside Tokyo. There is also an off-shore airport in Nagoya. You do bring up an interesting point though. You see large cities outside the US who are willing to spend billions and billions of dollars to build these airports because they see an advantage but the US seems to be ok with just dealing with the way things are, even if it is a mess. Hong Kong is another example of a city who needed a new airport and there was no where to build one except to pour a whole lot of dirt in the sea and build a huge airport on it. I am not saying cities in the US should be building these kinds of airports, you just don’t see the same kind of ambition in the US as you do in Asia. Incidentally though, the Hong Kong airport is regarded as one of the best airports in the world and is able to accommodate 2-3 times the number of passengers and cargo their old airport (Kai Tak) had.

Sorry everyone, for hijacking this thread. I realize it isn’t entirely SLC transit related.

[Makid]

The 2015 timeframe is stated on the UTA website. It might be due to the amount of bridges that are needed for the line. It will need a bridge over the Union Pacific/Frontrunner South rails, 1 over I-215 and 1 over the Jordan River. There might be another bridge or 2 needed also.

I think a large part of the construction timeframe is due to the bridges. It should also be completed by the time the West Valley Intermodal hub is completed and BRT phase 2 along 3500 is completed.

[urbanboy]

The Airport (North Temple) TRAX line will go under I-215, not over it, so there is no need for a bridge there. Also, I wonder if the plan is to only construct the line to the border of the Airport until the Airport plans are finalized, and this is why the completion date is so far away.

[RFPCME]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

The Airport (North Temple) TRAX line will go under I-215, not over it, so there is no need for a bridge there. Also, I wonder if the plan is to only construct the line to the border of the Airport until the Airport plans are finalized, and this is why the completion date is so far away.

Urbanboy: Great point. I sincerely hope your guess is correct.

[RFPCME]

Originally Posted by Makid

The 2015 timeframe is stated on the UTA website. It might be due to the amount of bridges that are needed for the line. It will need a bridge over the Union Pacific/Frontrunner South rails, 1 over I-215 and 1 over the Jordan River. There might be another bridge or 2 needed also.

I think a large part of the construction timeframe is due to the bridge
s. It should also be completed by the time the West Valley Intermodal hub is completed and BRT phase 2 along 3500 is completed.

Makid: The proposed timeframe for the TRAX extension really got me thinking. You're right about the bridges, but I wonder if the biggest time factor is right-of-way. It seems to me that construction of a new rail system, light or otherwise, in a populated area with out an existing right-of-way, has got to be extremely complicated. If I remember correctly, with the exception of the University line, most of the current TRAX system used right-of-ways that were already there. There was little need to realign current streets and build rail-street intersections. If you add the additional time necessary for all the right-of-way issues to the very complicated technology infrastructure necessary for light rail (e.g., high-voltage power, automated and synchronized switching of everything from traffic lights to rail sidings), the time frame may not be unreasonable. Redoing I-15 was one thing, but building a rail line is quite another, like comparing a butcher's knife with a surgeon's scalpel--they both cut but the precision of one is quite different from the other.

[SLC Projects]

Speaking of Airport I notice that crews are about ready to tear up the far North parking lot just West of Hertz. I told you guys a few weeks ago that the parking lot there is closing. And it has been close now for a few weeks and now we could see something happen. Not sure what yet, but I'll keep everyone posted on it.

[delts145]

^^^
Please do Projects. This whole airport business is great reading. It's especially helpful to get the inside perspective and info. first hand.

Ceremony launches construction of West Valley TRAX line

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700236003,00.html

West Valley City came one shovelful of gravel closer to gaining its own TRAX line Wednesday as the Utah Transit Authority ceremoniously launched construction n the next phase of its FrontLines 2015 project.


Groundbreaking - Laura Seitz, Deseret News
.

UTA projects to be completed by 2015

Upcoming UTA projects to be completed by 2015:

• Mid-Jordan TRAX line, connecting the 6400 South TRAX stop to Daybreak in South Jordan — currently under construction.

• West Valley TRAX line, connecting 2100 South TRAX stop to future West Valley City intermodal hub near 3500 South — construction will begin this week.

• FrontRunner South, commuter rail from Salt Lake City to Provo — construction is expected to begin late this summer.

• Airport TRAX line, connecting downtown Salt Lake City to the Salt Lake City International Airport — construction is expected to begin by the end of the year.

• Draper TRAX line, extending TRAX from 10000 South in Sandy to about 14600 South in Draper — a construction date has not been scheduled.



.

[arkhitektor]

The completion date of 2015 is part of UTA's Frontlines 2015 Program, which includes completing the Mid-Jordan, Airport, West Valley and Draper TRAX lines as well as Frontrunner south lines by 2015. I think that some of the projects may well be completed before 2015, but they are just using that as the end date for the whole thing.

Originally Posted by urbanboy

The Airport (North Temple) TRAX line will go under I-215, not over it, so there is no need for a bridge there.

Makid was probably referring to the West Valley line, which will require constuction of a number of bridges, since it will cross under I-15 at the Spaghetti Bowl, over the UP Yard and Frontrunner Tracks, over the Jordan River and over I-215:



Also, I'd never really considered it until I looked at this map again a few minutes ago, but it seems that all the WVC TRAX line will do is connect two points that are soon going to be served by MAX BRT, but in a roundabout way. I'm all for TRAX expansion, but it just seems that this line isn't going to serve as many people as say, a line going to the east side of the valley would.

[Future Mayor]

You make a good point regarding the reduncancy, however I do think it is a critical piece of the overall Trax puzzle. As the valley continues to boom, and as places like Sandy (even if we like it or not) continue to grow commercially with more office space the BRT and LRT will both be good options. If WVC plans it's city efficiently it could have the potential to increase it's commercial(office) base also. Trax could play a major role in that growth, especially considering the push toward TOD's.

The diagnol orientation of trax from WVC to 2100 S can shave off some substantial time as oppose to the BRT running to the 3300 S station. While the BRT will have less stops than a regular bus, it will still have more stops than Trax. I think a key component is the fact that it will have a stop near the E-Center. My house is in the LP (Liberty Park) area and I enjoy going to hockey games every now and then, or out to the comedy club (is it still there?) I'm sure I'm not the only person living north of 2100 S that would enjoy going to the Grizzlies game and I would take Trax to get there.

I diverted for a second. I think having multiple transit options will increase the number of riders in the long run. As the commercial core continues to grow and expand many people living in WVC and further west may work downtown, but many very well may work to the south and BRT would be an ideal option for them.

As for the construction time line, I think the biggest issue on the WVC line is that there is no public street that it is being built on, as is the case with the Airport line and there is only limited amount of track, with or without right of way out to Valley Fair. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the existing track/right of way for that line pretty much end at the UPRR yard?

[WASDEN]

I love TRAX but I've never understood the West Valley line, especially now that theres BRT. It seems like the West Valley line just kind of snakes to nowhere. If we really want to serve the West side with mass transit, cutting down on the number of transfers would be optimal. Jumping of BRT to board the West Valley TRAX line, only to switch again when reaching the main TRAX line just doesn't make sense- especially since BRT is WAY cheaper. I don't see why BRT can't continue down 35th and connect with the 33rd TRAX station, or if there really is that much of a ridership projection along the West Valley TRAX allignment, BRT could follow a similar route and connect with the TRAX main line at 21rst.

[arkhitektor]

BRT will continue to the 3300 S. TRAX Station.

Does anybody know whether West Valley trains will continue all the way downtown, or will you have to get off at 2100 S. TRAX and transfer to another train to get downtown?

[Orlando]

What is MAX BRT? and what does it look like?

[Future Mayor]

It was my understanding that all trains would continue to downtown, WVC, Sandy/Draper, and West Jordan. This would bring more people to dt but would increase the frequency of trains from 6200 S and 2100 S. The additional trains coming into DT, particulary from WJ all the way to Central Station will help to accomodate the increase in riders, not only from the WJ line but from the new developments, particulary in the Murray area, such as Fireclay. More frequent trains will help to take seeing as the commute time trains are usually running four cars long and are packed.

With that said it looks as if the CBD will have a train somewhere around every 3 minutes. University, Draper, WVC and WJ.

[WASDEN]

Dude that is a TON of trains running downtown! Just think how many trains would be on Main after the University line joins up as well. The downtown loop is going to be a necessity.

[arkhitektor]

Yeah, I think that we're going to need a loop, and I hope that at least of the lines or perhaps every other train goes the opposite way on the loop, to the Intermodal hub first, then around through the rest of downtown. It takes just as long to get from Murray to 500 S. on TRAX as it takes to get from 500 S. to the Intermodal hub.

I ride the TRAX to the Intermodal hub daily to get to Frontrunner. It takes so long to get to Central Station to transfer to Frontrunner that many bicyclists I know get off TRAX at 900S, ride to the hub and beat TRAX by an entire transfer, catching an earlier Frontrunner departure than those that stay on TRAX.

[Future Mayor]

Yes I think a loop or two will be vital I am going to post my loop diagram again, and yes it looks alot like the one presented several weeks ago by some committee but I posted mine several months prior so I am saying it was my idea and they stole it, not the other way around. lol Forgive my blue airport line, it was placed in my originally preferred alignment.



It would be nice if every other Draper, WVC, and WJ train took the green 700 S loop.

As I contemplate it I almost think that the university line could just take the purple 400 S extension most of the time. Maybe in a 4 train rotation, trains 1 and 3 take the 400 S extension, train 2 takes the current(north) loop, and train 4 takes the south loop. This would still allow for platform transfers to the Draper Line Obviously game days will be completely different.

Maybe because there will be so many lines running through downtown that they send every third or so Draper, WVC, WJ line up to the U. Just a thought.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

and yes it looks alot like the one presented several weeks ago by some committee but I posted mine several months prior so I am saying it was my idea and they stole it, not the other way around. lol

LOL. I believe you Future Mayor. And that is a very good idea for downtown.