2 new power centres for Hamilton!!!!

[markbarbera]

Coalminecanary, your arguments are bang-on. Unfortunately, some keep on diverting attention from the main issue:

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I believe that highway development is positive and necessary. You on the other hand "know that pure highway-based development is a dead end road" .

fastcarsfreedom, you are quoting coalmine out of context. He is arguing (rightly) that highway-based big box development on industrial lands is an economic dead-end road. It is not an attack against Wal-Mart specifically, but calls into question how appropriate it is for big box developments to locate on prime industrial lands. To even entertain the thought that land zoned for industrial use should be developed as a retail centre does the city a great injustice. After all, the city cannot make a case for expanding industrial land zones if it is allowing existing industrial lands to be rezoned for retail.

This is about preventing the loss of valuable industrial lands to to retail use, fastcarsfreedom. If you think the city would have more economical benefits arising from retail than from industrial development, please present your reasoning on that argument as it would, if nothing else, make for an interesting read.

[raisethehammer]

if I may also add, I'm no fan of mega highway construction and their never ending debt load that threatens to crush our city coffers, HOWEVER, highways have been built (whether I like it or not) and I want them to be used for the best possible gain for our city. Yes, I know long-term, highways are a dead end of congestion, pollution and a drain on the overall economy, so I at least want to leverage as much positive as I can while there is still a chance. low wage retail is a complete waste along highways. Even though I hate the idea of far-flung 'business parks' with no transit, cycling or pedestrian connections to the city I'd at least rather see that be built so folks in Hamilton who are currently driving to Toronto (or moving away) for good jobs can stay in Hamilton and have new taxes coming into city hall from businesses and employees that actually have money. I don't want Hamilton to continue becoming a city full of marginalized people who can only afford to work and shop at Walmart (or Zellers or K-Mart etc.... just to avoid being called 'anti-walmart').

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

when you rail against highway development as fervently as many here have--it is bordering on hypocritical when you then begin to dictate the sorts of developments that are going to go onto newly serviced land.

I don't rail against development along existing highways. I rail against new highways being built when we are already choking on highways in Southern Ontario. I also rail against inappropriate development along highways, i.e. slapping a one level retail economy-sinkhole on a site much better suited to office or industrial economy-drivers.

I look at it this way:

Retail:
-Takes money in from neighbouring communities when they shop there
-gives back to community in low paying part time jobs
-gives back to community in taxes
-gives most of the profit to head office in another city or country, where head office employees make better salaries over longer periods and feed their own local economy

Commercial (office):
-takes money from customers over a large area, not just locally
-gives back to community in high paying long term jobs
-gives back to community in taxes
-accepts the profit made in a wide area and uses it to feed the local economy (through the salaries and taxes mentioned)

Commercial (industrial/manufacturing)
-takes from community in an environmental fashion (creating pollution etc)
-gives back to community in high paying long term jobs
-gives back to community in taxes
-accepts the profit made in a wide area and uses it to feed the local economy (through the salaries and taxes mentioned)

Which would you rather have? why are we switching commercial land to retail when it's clearly a net loser? Why don't we focus our energies on attracting high tech investment? Other cities much uglier than ours have made a successful run at that idea. Are we even trying? We need to be attracting more head offices of retail chains and fewer retail outlets.

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I believe that highway development is positive and necessary. You on the other hand "know that pure highway-based development is a dead end road"

You are misreading my point. By "pure", I mean "only", or "solely" or even "primarily". I am talking about putting all your eggs in one basket. I am referring to basing your economy ONLY on highway-based development. I think all of us inherently know that this type of development is dead end, especially if it's the only thing you have. It's not just opinion: rising oil prices have made it a reality. So my point is that we need to have a mix of development, including transit oriented development, walkable communities (mixed use zoning), rebuilding our rail systems -- public investment in rail is pathetically minuscule compared to investment in roads, etc.

Take a look at mississauga or brampton. They have built all of their economy around building more roads, highways and developing along them. What happens to these "cities" when oil reaches the tipping point where trucking companies are no longer profitable and people can't afford to drive everywhere? Even if you do not agree with the concept of long term irreversible oil depletion and rising prices... even if you think this oil price issue is simply going to be a "blip" like in the seventies... you have to see that the past 50 years of solely investing in highway oriented development is going to severely bite these places in the ass for the duration of the "blip". Am I really as closed minded and 'out there' as you think? Even if we have a 5 year blip causing a severe crunch on highway oriented development, it's going to take decades to recover. We need to be building and maintaining as many "baskets" as we can. Our eggs are depending on it ;-)

[LikeHamilton]

Heritage Greene slated for next fall
Laura Lennie

Mar 07, 2008 Stoney Creek News.

Heritage Greene Centre's construction has begun and its completion is slated for next year.

"We're probably looking at around the fall, but we don't know for sure," said Paul Silvestri, president of Silvestri Investments which is developing the property in partnership with Effort Trust, at the corner of Paramount Drive and Winterberry Drive.

The centre consists of 320,000 square feet of big box retail space. Expected tenants include Best Buy, Home Depot, Indigo, Linens 'N' Things, Michael's, Pet Smart, Pro Hockey Life, Royal Bank of Canada and Tim Hortons, as well as Kelsey's, Milestone's, Montana's and a fast food restaurant.

A 41,000-square-foot, 2,200-seat SilverCity theatre with a small family play area, large concession stand and parking, along with a three-storey office building are also slated for the site.

"It will be big," said Mr. Silvestri. "It will be fantastic for residents because they haven't had anything for the longest time up there, so it's going to bring a lot to the community."

In the meantime, Ward 9 councillor Brad Clark says Stone Church Road will be widened this summer and urbanized by the end of the year to compensate for needed changes related to the centre's development.

"They're up there now beginning work for the installation of sewers and water mains, which will account for temporary road closures in the coming months," he said.

The work, however, is worth the effort, says Mr. Clark.

"A lot of residents in upper Stoney Creek have been travelling to Lime Ridge Mall, the Meadowlands and this will give them an opportunity to shop in their own community," he said. "This development will bring hundreds of full-time and part-time jobs to our community as well."

Other expected road improvements include, the extension of the northbound left turn lane on Winterberry at Mud Street, traffic signals at the new development and a left turn lane into the development.

For years, talk of the development has been met with skepticism by residents who fear increased traffic and vandalism at the site. Many have expressed concerns about the safety of students at nearby Janet Lee elementary school. But others have applauded the fact they will no longer have to travel for these amenities.

Originally, the plan was to have 600,000 square feet of commercial and retail space without any residential units. But when residents protested, the developer reviewed the plans and talked to school officials and decided to place restrictions on the plan and add residential units.

[SteelTown]

Oh Milestone huh? Think that's the first for Hamilton.

Seeing how Effort Trust is with this there must be residential development invloved. There was a concept design here awhile ago for Heritage Greene and it looked good.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Yeah SteelTown--I'll probably get flogged for saying this, but I found the food at Milestone's pretty damn good--and the atmosphere is nice--been wondering when Cara would bring that concept to Hamilton.

[SteelTown]

To me Milestone is fine dining but coroporate franchise type. Milestone has Kobe beef (you don't see on menus too often). I like how they have a seperate vegetarian menu.

[raisethehammer]

never eaten there (because there's none in the Hammer...I'll happily refuse to eat at anyplace that doesn't count my city worthwhile).
Stoney Creek is further for me than Burlington, so I still won't be eating there...I'll take your guys word that it's good.
Open one downtown and I'll check it out.

[HAMRetrofit]

It is part of the same umbrella organization as Kelsey's, Montana's, Outback, etc., etc.. It offers the 'feux' up scale or 'your a star' dining experience as opposed to the box roadhouse. The food is generally the same as the above mentioned restaurants but rebranded with a different assortment of spices and sauces. It uses a sort of Thai motif to the taste of its food. I would rank it about a 4.5/10, the above mentioned restaurants I would rank 2.5, 3.0, 4.0, respectively.

[highwater]

I ate at one in Mississauga when I was on a shopping expedition. Not bad at all. If you find yourself out in the burbs looking for a place to eat you could do alot worse, but it's not worth going out of your way for. Don't be taking the wife there for your anniversary.

[SteelTown]

I'm surprised there's no grocery store planned for Heritage Greene.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by LikeHamilton

The centre consists of 320,000 square feet of big box retail space. Expected tenants include Best Buy, Home Depot, Indigo, Linens 'N' Things, Michael's, Pet Smart, Pro Hockey Life, Royal Bank of Canada and Tim Hortons, as well as Kelsey's, Milestone's, Montana's and a fast food restaurant.

A 41,000-square-foot, 2,200-seat SilverCity theatre with a small family play area, large concession stand and parking, along with a three-storey office building are also slated for the site.

This sounds like quite a good lineup. I prefer the Chapters format over Indigo, but I like it all the same.

[flar]

It's like a replica of the Meadowlands. But it's only like 15 km away from the Meadowlands. How many of these things can the city even support? I mean they're building a new Future Shop at the Smart Centre in Ancaster and it's literally 9km and 8 minutes from the existing future Shop at the Meadowlands (which will become a Best Buy). Each of these will be about 20-25km and 15 to 20 minutes away from the Best Buy in Burlington.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by flar

It's like a replica of the Meadowlands. But it's only like 15 km away from the Meadowlands. How many of these things can the city even support? I mean they're building a new Future Shop at the Smart Centre in Ancaster and it's literally 9km and 8 minutes from the existing future Shop at the Meadowlands (which will become a Best Buy). Each of these will be about 20-25km and 15 to 20 minutes away from the Best Buy in Burlington.

It is interesting that two new Best Buys are planned when there is just one in the area at the moment. All of Toronto only has five Best Buys or so.

[fastcarsfreedom]

HAMRetrofit--did you mean "faux" or are you saying Milestone's offers some sort of "fire dining"? Of course it's a chain operation--and it comes along with those trappings--but I wouldn't say Cara is making an effort to "disguise" it as something it's not.

BCTed the Chapters/!ndigo arrangement is almost as interesting as the Best Buy/Future Shop situation. I'm pretty sure the Chapters format is dead as far as new store development goes--not sure if they'll ever combine the operations under a single name or just leave the Chapters stores as they are. The first generation Chapters locations were the best--such as the one in Ancaster--since then they have been consistently downsized--and as I said, all new development seems to be !ndigo. (Interesting to note that the first location for both chains were in Burlington). Best Buy seems to be pairing up it's BB and FS locations. I realize the chains differ to a degree (appliances and commissioned salespeople at FS)--but the strategy of co-locating the two chains seems disjointed to me. Locally the FS location is packing up and moving to a new location that is literally about 500 yards from the BB--perhaps the theory is that people like to cross-shop for electronics.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

HAMRetrofit--did you mean "faux" or are you saying Milestone's offers some sort of "fire dining"? Of course it's a chain operation--and it comes along with those trappings--but I wouldn't say Cara is making an effort to "disguise" it as something it's not.

BCTed the Chapters/!ndigo arrangement is almost as interesting as the Best Buy/Future Shop situation. I'm pretty sure the Chapters format is dead as far as new store development goes--not sure if they'll ever combine the operations under a single name or just leave the Chapters stores as they are. The first generation Chapters locations were the best--such as the one in Ancaster--since then they have been consistently downsized--and as I said, all new development seems to be !ndigo. (Interesting to note that the first location for both chains were in Burlington). Best Buy seems to be pairing up it's BB and FS locations. I realize the chains differ to a degree (appliances and commissioned salespeople at FS)--but the strategy of co-locating the two chains seems disjointed to me. Locally the FS location is packing up and moving to a new location that is literally about 500 yards from the BB--perhaps the theory is that people like to cross-shop for electronics.

I miss the old days of Chapters when there were many cushioned chairs and sofas all over the store... I would shamelessly spend a couple of hours at a time there. Even now, with only a few wooden chairs, I still somehow prefer its aesthetics to those of Indigo.

The Best Buy/ Future Shop thing also has me confused. I actually prefer Best Buy just because of the fact that I have bad memories from the old days of Future Shop when the salespeople were dressed in suits and had kind of a slimy approach. Apart from the commission thing, I don't know what the real difference is... the two stores sell largely the same products.

Does Best Buy not sell appliances? I swear that I have seen them in there, but I may be thinking of US stores that I have been in.

[FRM]

one question kept popping into my head while reading that article: " why is the city allowing developers to expand like that, and ignore the core of the city?". I think the city should take a stance where they let these big boxes go up in the burbs but also force them to commit something to the downtown as well.

[Millstone]

i've always wanted a restaurant named after me!

[flar]

They're not totally ignoring the lower city, eg: the Centre Mall redevelopment and the attempt to build some big box stuff near the McMaster Innovation Park (which the city is fighting), but it would be nice if there was something right in the core. The demographics in central Hamilton are not quite there yet.

[LikeHamilton]

Originally Posted by flar

It's like a replica of the Meadowlands. But it's only like 15 km away from the Meadowlands. How many of these things can the city even support? I mean they're building a new Future Shop at the Smart Centre in Ancaster and it's literally 9km and 8 minutes from the existing future Shop at the Meadowlands (which will become a Best Buy). Each of these will be about 20-25km and 15 to 20 minutes away from the Best Buy in Burlington.

They don’t think of city limits when they plan power centers. There is 400,000+ people living south of Hamilton from Welland to Simcoe and to Lake Eire that Limeridge, Fortinos and the power centers are the closest that they have to major shopping. I have friends in Dunnville, Caledonia, Port Dover and Hagersville that do not think twice about driving into Hamilton for shopping. There is nothing out there.