[Dartmouth] M District FGN (21 Mic Mac Blvd) | ? m | ^40 Floors | Approved

[ArchAficionado]

Subways can certainly be built in rock. much of the Montreal green line and orange line through downtown are as such.

I think that some sort of rail solution is emminently necessary in Halifax's medium-term future. Given the lead time on these projects, planning needs to start immediately if we want any hope of an operational system even a decade from now. (Just look at Toronto's Eglinton LRT, which started the same year as many now high-school students were born).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

Here's what google says:

GoogleWalkSpeed by A.J. Forsythe, on Flickr


I find google maps to be very conservative sometimes suggesting it would take as much as twice as long as it actually takes me. I don't think google takes into account pathways and trails etc, rather it sticks to public roads.

Solved!

And note to self: do not post estimated walking times on an Internet forum!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ArchAficionado

I think that some sort of rail solution is emminently necessary in Halifax's medium-term future. Given the lead time on these projects, planning needs to start immediately if we want any hope of an operational system even a decade from now. (Just look at Toronto's Eglinton LRT, which started the same year as many now high-school students were born).

Hopefully it won't take that long. The Eglinton tunnel construction began in the 90s and was halted, then a bus route was built in the early 2000s, and the LRT just opened. I remember it being discussed when I lived near Eglinton for a while.. about 20 years ago.

Aside from the metro area getting into the LRT size range, Halifax is pursuing a strategy of heavy infill development. I suspect the 2026 census will show another huge jump in population of central areas and it'll continue to 2031. These areas will get harder and harder to serve well with conventional buses and are in the density range where streetcar or LRT makes sense. There's also probably enough corridor density already to build a coherent line with numerous stations that will each have decent demand, which I'd say likely wasn't true in say 2010.

Speaking of Toronto the streetcars have their issues but I think they could work well in Halifax and they're proven to work in a Canadian city. Toronto has some underground sections as well. In Halifax you could do a transit mall like section along Spring Garden, a small tunnel section for part of downtown, and run them in the Robie median. They could even go over the Macdonald bridge most likely, and connect at Bridge Terminal and Mumford or similar.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

It can happen but it's a secondary effect, while the primary benefit of transit investment is to improve transit. The ultimate goal is to provide efficient transportation options to people, for example, by giving them a train that takes 30 minutes for a trip that takes 1 hour by car. It's the same for active transportation. It's mostly for the person walking or biking, not for the person who is not using that infrastructure.

Some governments do reduce congestion through measures that increase the cost of driving, like congestion pricing or licensing fees. You see this in some places in Asia. I like these systems but I think they are politically difficult to implement in Halifax because people feel they are entitled to drive and get offended by driving-related fees (yet tolerate one of the least competitive tax environments overall in Canada). I don't agree that Halifax is an exclusively car-focused city or hates transit, but I think there is a kind of car-based chauvinism among some drivers, who think of driving as the only "serious" way to get around, and don't have a lot of sympathy for those who don't or can't drive. Many people rely on transit, walking, or biking, especially younger people and seniors.

I think it’s more pragmatic than that, in that Halifax transit in the past 40 years has been borderline acceptable and perpetually behind the times. People will always choose what they perceive as the best transportation option, and even when driving gets bad in Halifax, they still view car travel as the best option, even though the cost is incredibly high compared to taking a bus. I often read here that we need to make car travel more expensive or less convenient to force people to use other less-desirable modes of transportation, but that’s backwards. If you make transit really good, i.e. convenient, efficient, reliable, comfortable, and clean/attractive, then this becomes the most desirable method of transportation. If you, as you’ve suggested, make a one-hour car trip into a half hour LRT (or whatever) trip, and don’t handicap it by only having a train every 45 minutes or one hour, people will take notice. They will recognize that the train trip is convenient, much cheaper, and has less stress compared to a car trip, and they will select that method. It will never be a complete transformation, but I think transportation in Halifax would be objectively much better.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

The high-end fashion mall concept may or may not work out but it might be good for the mall to become a full-service stop with a grocery store and so on, and adding towers around it would help with that. A lot of the secondary malls around here have shops that cover basic local errands. They tend to have a full sized grocery store, some smaller shops like a bakery or produce store, bank branches, pharmacy, and liquor store.

MMM has had most of that stuff in the past, and could easily transition back to it, if management understands the business case for this when this development is finished (or X% finished).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It will never be a complete transformation, but I think transportation in Halifax would be objectively much better.

Halifax has high transit ridership for the level of service provided, mostly buses with lots of delays and overcrowding. It is near the top for a North American city of comparable size and is higher ridership than in many larger metro areas with rail service. There's a question of what the ridership and modal share could be with more investment. I think it probably could be a lot higher. The average weekdays boardings are already over 100,000.

I agree with the point about making transportation options better rather than sabotaging other modes of travel until transit becomes the best alternative. That being said, sometimes it gets twisted as people complain about transit investment from the perspective of drivers who see it only as a loss of investment dollars and road space, which is not right.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

That being said, sometimes it gets twisted as people complain about transit investment from the perspective of drivers who see it only as a loss of investment dollars and road space, which is not right.

I find that kind of zero-sum thinking to be a little strange, and it spills over into public opinion of other aspects of city and provincial planning as well. Like we can’t afford a stadium because we need to have affordable housing, we can’t afford new ferry routes because we need more buses, etc. IMHO we should be striving for all the things that improve quality of life for citizens, and things that cost a lot of money and take a long time to implement need to be planned years in advance. Yet at times it feels like we are struggling with walking and chewing gum at the same time…

[Corker]

Take this with a grain of salt, but I saw a comment on Facebook from someone saying they were working on the renovation of the lower-level space formerly occupied by The Bay, and that it was going to be a grocery store.

There are already four Sobeys/Superstores along or within a couple blocks of the Circ, plus the Sobeys on Wyse Road, but putting one here in MMM now would (re-)establish a grocery store to serve the existing north/east end of inner Dartmouth plus the additional population planned in this immediate and surrounding area. Sooner than I expected but probably a good move by whichever one it is.

[Keith P.]

I still imagine an electric LRT route from the airport following the 102 and then to DT running on a 30 minute loop.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I still imagine an electric LRT route from the airport following the 102 and then to DT running on a 30 minute loop.

This would be amazing. Our 100 series highways are pretty darn good and are getting better with twinning. Serious congestion doesn't happen until one reaches the city. With strategic placement of the parking structures, say airport and near the 101/102 interchange we could kill more than two birds with one stone. ...commuter service; airport service; traffic relief in the core; etc.

[HfxGuy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I still imagine an electric LRT route from the airport following the 102 and then to DT running on a 30 minute loop.

I would love to see this as well. The windy turns on the 102 between bedford and fall river might pose some challenges but i'm sure it can be done.

A bit off topic for this thread, but I think there's a great opportunity with the new 101-102 connector to enable LRT from sackville, through Sandy Lake via the new connector, west bedford down Larry Uteck blvd, and onto the 102 and into the city from there. Grade is all relatively flat, and would serve an enormous and growing population.

[ArchAficionado]

Originally Posted by HfxGuy

I would love to see this as well. The windy turns on the 102 between bedford and fall river might pose some challenges but i'm sure it can be done.

A bit off topic for this thread, but I think there's a great opportunity with the new 101-102 connector to enable LRT from sackville, through Sandy Lake via the new connector, west bedford down Larry Uteck blvd, and onto the 102 and into the city from there. Grade is all relatively flat, and would serve an enormous and growing population.

That's a great idea. I think the ideal would be a 2-way loop with 24-hour service at 15-min peak / 30min off-peak intervals, that can operate like a park-n-ride and also an urban-suburban link to allow car-free travel to suburban shopping areas.

An airport link and continuity over the bridge, with more urban/local streetcars or sub-lines, would build out quite a compelling system.

Perhaps I'll draw something up to share with everybody here.

[Jonovision]

I've always envisioned an elevated light metro running along the Circ. Start at woodside, stop at Penhorn, Main, Micmac, Highfield and Shannon park, and then loop back underground through downtown Dartmouth. All of these growth nodes would are the perfect type of development to foster transit investment of this kind.

One can dream!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

I've always envisioned an elevated light metro running along the Circ. Start at woodside, stop at Penhorn, Main, Micmac, Highfield and Shannon park, and then loop back underground through downtown Dartmouth. All of these growth nodes would are the perfect type of development to foster transit investment of this kind.

One can dream!

And the Shannon Park stop could be coordinated with the ferry to DT. I like it.

[someone123]

Transit stops next to or in the middle of highways are common in the US. Around Seattle or Portland, for example. They are okay for bus connections but the walking distances end up being long and inconvenient, at least on one side of the highway if not both. Furthermore the highway is there so it tends to be a car-friendly area. Most of those systems have pretty mediocre ridership.

[Jonovision]

Originally Posted by someone123

Transit stops next to or in the middle of highways are common in the US. Around Seattle or Portland, for example. They are okay for bus connections but the walking distances end up being long and inconvenient, at least on one side of the highway if not both. Furthermore the highway is there so it tends to be a car-friendly area. Most of those systems have pretty mediocre ridership.

A lot of those systems have transit running at grade through the highway. In my pie in the sky dream it would be elevated, so the stations could be elevated meaning they would be more at street level with the station neighbourhoods. And all of these areas are poised for large scale redevelopment that could plan for an incorporate these into their pedestrian environments.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

I've always envisioned an elevated light metro running along the Circ. Start at woodside, stop at Penhorn, Main, Micmac, Highfield and Shannon park, and then loop back underground through downtown Dartmouth. All of these growth nodes would are the perfect type of development to foster transit investment of this kind.

One can dream!

If we're dreaming, I'd love to see:

Shannon Park -> Burnside - > Mic Mac Mall -> Braemar Drive -> Main Street Commercial Area -> NSCC Akerly -> Forest Hills Parkway -> Main Street by the old Beaver Lumber -> Akoma/Cherry Brook Road

Do it now before Main Street truly redevelops, and then upzone all of the lands around each of those nodes. Halifax Transit seems to be alergic to running any real transit along Main Street because "there's not enough density", but this is an opportunity to use transit to drive density.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

MDistrictArea by Viewpoint Capture, on Flickr


I saw this pic on Viewpoint and thought that it might provide a bit of context for the thread.