Why does Toronto have more "street-based" neighbourhoods than other Canadian cities?

[Docere]

While Toronto does have its well-defined "place-based" neighbourhoods with strong identities existing for many decades (Annex, the Beaches, Parkdale) a lot of other areas are relatively recent creations based on commercial strip/BIA or intersection (Yonge-Eglinton, Bloor West Village, Roncesvalles, the Danforth etc.) and if asked people who live in these areas will use these terms.

In contrast Montreal's neighbourhood names have held out more consistently, for longer and are based on parish names or old villages (i.e. Notre Dame de Grace, Hochelaga, Cote de Neiges etc.) Vancouver's neighbourhoods also lean more towards place-based identities (Mount Pleasant, Kitsilano, Kerrisdale etc.) though it does have a few commercial strip-based ones (Commercial Drive).

[LeftCoaster]

I'd say streetcars, but then again Vancouver was pretty streetcar focussed too so not sure.

[hipster duck]

The first is scale. Toronto is bigger than every other Canadian city, and only Montreal rivals Toronto for the sheer number of pre-war neighbourhoods that locals can name. Vancouver is a distant third, but still within comparison range.

In Montreal's case, I feel like the informal names for neighbourhoods cover a big area, and maybe it has to do with their borough system bleeding into informal place names. The boroughs are too big to be a single neighbourhood, but not so gigantic that you can't reasonably walk from one end to another, and they each have their mayor and council. I guess it would be acceptable for anyone to say they live in "The Plateau" if they live within the boundaries of the borough of Le Plateau Mont-Royal, even if that includes distinct, relatively famous areas within it like Mile End.

Vancouver is one step down: there are 22 official neighbourhoods with set boundaries. They're not led by mayors and city councillors, but they're used for planning purposes. So all of the famous ones like Kitsilano, Mount Pleasant, the West End, etc. are all official, rather than colloquial. So people will say "I live in Kits" with no follow-up questions, although maybe they do all their shopping on Broadway near MacDonald rather than on West 4th Ave.

[someone123]

I was going to say that a lot of Vancouver neighbourhoods are in practice structured around some commercial artery like Broadway, even if they're part of a larger named district. This seems like a pretty standard growth pattern in Canada from 1890-1950 or so, and Toronto probably has the most growth from that period, plus the most growth afterward to flesh out those areas a bit more. Even the West End is like this with clear commercial development along Denman, Robson, and Davie, and much less on side streets. Calgary has 17th Ave or 9th Ave.

Halifax has the same thing. Quinpool Rd is a very classic example and looks a bit like a Toronto neighbourhood commercial street in some ways. It was developed with houses around the early 1900s and then filled in with shops by 1940 or so. The city had only a small fraction of the growth of Toronto so there are only a few examples. The older North End in Halifax is more mixed-use and does have "high streets" but there are a lot more random businesses sprinkled around. Some other streets are now expanding with commercial development; they used to have just a few isolated shops, often in converted houses, but now they're zoned for mixed-use buildings (Oxford or Chebucto for example).

[Docere]

Toronto's planning districts in 1956 (p. 47). The Annex, Rosedale, Parkdale and the Beach(es) are on the map, but many of today's neighbourhood names had not yet been coined and were part of some administrative planning areas without a real identity:

https://archive.org/details/changing...ge/47/mode/1up

[Doady]

Everything in Toronto is oriented to the east-west corridors, which in turn are oriented toward downtown and Yonge. In contrast, north-south streets are mostly residential and lack identity. Even in Annex, Spadina suddenly becomes a small side street.

It is like transit-oriented development vs. New Urbanism. TOD emphasizes a transit line, New Urbanism emphasizes a particular landmark. Building a corridor vs. building a centre. Toronto focused on building corridors. People think about the corridor before a centre.

Beaches got the beaches. Annex is like an enclave, and Casa Loma is nearby. The rest of Toronto is not like that.

[TorontoDrew]

Most Torontonians can only name a handful of the city's neighbourhoods. I remember when I moved to my current home in Riverside getting into a heated discussion with a real estate agent that Riverside was the name of the area, and she argued it all falls under Leslieville. She also talked about the Danforth like it was some high end exclussive neighbourhood, it's not. Not sure how she got into real estate.

[Surrealplaces]

Calgary hasn't really seen neighborhoods based on streets because we use numbered streets unfortunately. The area of Kensington is based off of Kensington road, but all others are named only after the neighborhood.

A couple of Calgary's inner city hotspots are however street car related. 'The Beltline' was the name of a street car line that looped around the area now known as the Beltline. Marda Loop was a endpoint where the street car line ended and looped around.

[logan5]

I've heard people from Mt. Pleasant say "Main Street" as their neighbourhood, as well as Mt. Pleasant. I never hear people say "Riley Park", which is another neighbourhood up Main (between 16th and 41st), so I would imagine those people just say "Main Street".

Technically, Olympic Village is in Mt. Pleasant, but people who live their will identify "Olympic Village" as the neighborhood they live in. Mt. Pleasant covers a large area.

[YOWetal]

Isn't it more than just naming convention but how these neighbourhoods are actually organzied. Toronto has big streets that form neighbourhoods with one kind of Main Street. Ottawa has this a bit though doesn't use the names. Meanwhile Montreal neighbourhoods have much more diffuse shopping and eating areas even in more suburban neighbourhoods.

Just an observation but there are exceptions.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Most Torontonians can only name a handful of the city's neighbourhoods. I remember when I moved to my current home in Riverside getting into a heated discussion with a real estate agent that Riverside was the name of the area, and she argued it all falls under Leslieville. She also talked about the Danforth like it was some high end exclussive neighbourhood, it's not. Not sure how she got into real estate.

The name for that area has been in flux. Is it Riverdale or Riverside? Both Riverside and Leslieville are part of the larger Riverdale. Leslieville wasn't commonly used until the 2000s. Riverside was the name of the area when it was annexed by the city but the area soon became known as Riverdale.

[Innsertnamehere]

Hamilton actually has a lot of historic "main streets" as well - they just aren't as healthy as in Toronto, and some are just plain gone at this point and almost entirely vacant.

The healthy ones like Locke, Dundas, Westdale, Ottawa St, James North, and Concession St that are more well known.. But there are rougher ones like Kenilworth, Barton East, and Parkdale that have historic streetfronting storefronts that are basically just cooked at this point.

When I moved to Hamilton it surprised me at the sheer number of them for the size of city it is. It makes me feel like it's more of an early-20th Century Ontario thing, but Hamilton experienced depopulation leading to the degrading of a lot of the retail strips while Toronto grew massively keeping them generally healthy.

[niwell]

Hamilton still has those main street bones, but the first time I walked down Barton it was an... interesting experience.


For Toronto I'd guess another aspect would be the early adoption and preponderance of Business Improvement Areas along the main street strips. IIRC Bloor West Village was the first example of this in North America and others quickly popped up. Hence a lot of these areas are referred to by the BIA strip as opposed to official neighbourhood names. Sometimes it's technically a different neighbourhood on either side of a main street yet most refer to that area by the name of the strip. Bloorcourt/Bloordale and Little Portugal/Dundas West come to mind.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by logan5

I've heard people from Mt. Pleasant say "Main Street" as their neighbourhood, as well as Mt. Pleasant. I never hear people say "Riley Park", which is another neighbourhood up Main (between 16th and 41st), so I would imagine those people just say "Main Street".

Technically, Olympic Village is in Mt. Pleasant, but people who live their will identify "Olympic Village" as the neighborhood they live in. Mt. Pleasant covers a large area.

I live in Olympic Village and if I sat Mt Pleasant, people think I live near Broadway and Main, or further south.

OTOH if I say Mt Pleasant to some rube south of the Fraser they have no idea where that is. But they recognize Olympic Village.

[someone123]

Mount Pleasant is interesting in that it was a little less linear and more blob-like to begin with since it's where 3 streets converge, and now on top of that there's a lot of infill happening and a subway station going in. It will have a much more urban feel soon than an area like Commercial Drive and 1st, which is a strip of shops with single use residential around it.

It's impressive how far out you can find consistent strips of storefront shops in Vancouver along streets like Kingsway or Granville; I'd call all of those "street-based neighbourhoods". It wasn't a large city back when that type of development went out of style in most of North America.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by niwell

Hamilton still has those main street bones, but the first time I walked down Barton it was an... interesting experience.


For Toronto I'd guess another aspect would be the early adoption and preponderance of Business Improvement Areas along the main street strips. IIRC Bloor West Village was the first example of this in North America and others quickly popped up. Hence a lot of these areas are referred to by the BIA strip as opposed to official neighbourhood names. Sometimes it's technically a different neighbourhood on either side of a main street yet most refer to that area by the name of the strip. Bloorcourt/Bloordale and Little Portugal/Dundas West come to mind.

In the 1950s planning document I linked, it was part of the Humberside district. I like that name better than Bloor West Village, but that BIA name really took off.

Roncesvalles was historically part of Parkdale but at some point - maybe in the 90s - realtors started calling it Roncesvalles.

Little Italy is really a commercial strip too. Where "residential" Little Italy is sort of vague. The Toronto Neighbourhood Guide says it's between College and Dundas. But then the city considers the area north of College Palmerston-Little Italy.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by niwell

Hamilton still has those main street bones, but the first time I walked down Barton it was an... interesting experience.

Back in '94, my first real introduction to Vancouver (as a grown up) was getting of the bus by my lonesome, at the VIA/Greyhound station. My hotel reservation ("Days Inn") was at some place just west of Gastown. I had two big suitcases with me. I took the most direct route walking (trying to save my sparse dollars), which was East Hastings Street.

the first time I walked down East Hastings it was an... interesting experience.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by someone123

Mount Pleasant is interesting in that it was a little less linear and more blob-like to begin with since it's where 3 streets converge, and now on top of that there's a lot of infill happening and a subway station going in. It will have a much more urban feel soon than an area like Commercial Drive and 1st, which is a strip of shops with single use residential around it.

It's impressive how far out you can find consistent strips of storefront shops in Vancouver along streets like Kingsway or Granville; I'd call all of those "street-based neighbourhoods". It wasn't a large city back when that type of development went out of style in most of North America.

Mount Pleasant also straddles the east and west sides does it not?

[MonkeyRonin]

Toronto has a lot of commercial strips that run continuously for long distances, following streetcar & subway lines. They kind of bleed into each other, with individual neighbourhoods often containing portions of multiple streets of significance. So, it's those streets that take on the identity moreso than the surrounding environs.

The exceptions that do have strong neighbourhood identities - like Parkdale, Weston, or the Junction - are often places that were once their own towns and developed independently prior to being absorbed into the city; or are more residential in character (eg. Rosedale, Cabbagetown), or have more diffuse commercial side streets (eg. Kensington Market, Yorkville) and/or are clearly delineated by geography.

Vancouver's neighbourhoods are also largely focused around commercial streets (as most Canadian cities are), but these streets are less interconnected and function more independently from one another (more like a town's "main street" than continuous urban thoroughfares). Therefore, they're synonymous with the identity of the neighbourhoods. Vancouver's prominent neighbourhoods also tend to have clearer geographic delineations, given the city's topography. But then again, you also have neighbourhoods like Grandview-Woodland, which definitely takes a backseat to Commercial Drive on the name-recognition front, so who knows! To some extent, it might just be as simple as being a product of how catchy the name is.

[MonkeyRonin]

To add one more thought: the City of Toronto's "official" neighbourhoods are mostly quite small, and tend to treat the commercial thoroughfares as borders rather than as the "heart" of each community. They exist on a map, but otherwise feel contrived and unnatural to how these neighbourhoods are actually experienced on the ground. As such, most of these names just never really took off amongst the people who live there.

In comparison, Vancouver's defined neighbourhoods and Montreal's boroughs are larger, more historically consistent, and do a better job of corresponding to the "feel" of different parts of the city.