Canada's 4th city

[ssiguy]

In Canada, our 3 most important cities of Tor/Mon/Van are obvious but what about #4? Ottawa, Edmonton, and Calgary are all about the same size and each has areas where they excel and gain prominence.

Edmonton is a provincial capital and unlike the other 2, has a highly diversified economy and the most prestigious university. Ottawa is the national capital with all the government offices, agencies, and international recognition that comes with. Calgary is an economic and head office powerhouse as well as being a major transportation and logistical centre.

I am NOT talking about quality of life here as everyone has a different view on what makes up a high quality of life very much depending on their socio-economic status, political persuasions, lifestyles, and values. I am talking strictly about the city's importance on the national scene.

I will save my opinion on it till later but for now, if you guys were asked by a foreigner what is Canada's most important city is after the big 3, how would you respond?

[Architype]

That's easy, even though we are lucky to have a trifecta of fourth place cities, it's obviously Calgary (named after an obscure place in Scotland). But remember, if Quebec separates, Vancouver will be number two, and Calgary number three. You won't start many arguments here, as Canadians we don't really care that much, we are a post-nationalist country.

[biguc]

Nice of you to include Edmonton in the conversation. I'll be cheering for the upset..

It'll probably be Ottawa. Ottawa is a microcosm of other bits of Canada you don't really get in the top three--Northern Ontario, provincial Quebec, a homely mid-sized city. It's also the capital, which will never not be a thing. All of the above may make Ottawa boring, but it's actually growing in more interesting ways than Calgary. Zibi and LeBreton Flats--especially if the CCR's mercurial children do the right thing and build the Hull-Ottawa tram loop--will transform the city. I don't know if there's another capital city with a neighbourhood built around a waterfall with sweeping views to the capital buildings perched on a cliff. For all that Ottawa, looking at it from its own downtown, never made sense as a capital city, reorienting its centre over the river makes it make sense.

Calgary, on the other hand, is kind of fun. Trashy and embarrassing, but kind fun. Calgary is basically a creature of the oil industry (bad guys have historically been fun) and its airport, which is a creature of Banff, which is fun. Point is, it makes a good impression in ways we'd probably underrate.

We'll see what happens though. People might like dating Calgary, but once the pipeline work dries up you're left with a VLT-addicted cokehead and that charming tips-the-cowboy-hat thing isn't far removed from tipping a fedora anyway, milady.

Ottawa is probably better positioned to grow into a big city. It has a bigger urban, compared to suburban, footprint, which means it has more space to upzone and grow before it's hemmed in by curvilinear streets, cul-de-sacs, and high-speed roadways. Ottawa's new metro service may have its growing pains, but it's better set up to work as a regional connector, serving a large population, compared to Calgary's mini-commuter trains. We'll see how important that kind of service even is when downtown office jobs aren't. Calgary also made a lot of short-sighted choices in placing C-train stations outside that will prevent easy connection to other transit, limiting its potential to provide more all-purpose service. And Ottawa's location between cities 1 and 2 is better than being the city closest to Banff, the city furthest from Vancouver without having to go to Edmonton or Saskatchewan, or a poor representation of the prairies masquerading as mountains.

Anyway, whether it's Canada's fourth city, Calgary is Western Canada's second city, which makes it the Graz or Debrecen of Western Canada, for what that's worth. And, when you break Canada down into normal-country-sized regions, you realize that isn't worth much. Ottawa, as the third city in a Montreal-Toronto sandwich, gets to be Genova or Valencia--Wroclaw at worst.

I guess the point is, does it matter? What's the fourth city in the US? San Francisco? Houston? How about in Argentina? Or Mexico? Who gives a shit, right?

I was going to say something about Edmonton. If they build a light rail line down Whyte Ave out to Sherwood Park, get infill development to really catch on, and HSR to Calgary happens, they could be the dark horse to win this race. Canada's north is only going to get more important. Edmonton, as it historically was, will emerge as the gateway to the North and a very important city. The sheer math of Edmonton's lead over other northern cities all but guarantees that. But for the time being, this is just potential. Edmonton is clearly the least accomplished of the medium three.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by biguc

Calgary, on the other hand, is kind of fun. Trashy and embarrassing, but kind fun. Calgary is basically a creature of the oil industry (bad guys have historically been fun) and its airport, which is a creature of Banff, which is fun. Point is, it makes a good impression in ways we'd probably underrate.

We'll see what happens though. People might like dating Calgary, but once the pipeline work dries up you're left with a VLT-addicted cokehead and that charming tips-the-cowboy-hat thing isn't far removed from tipping a fedora anyway, milady.

As someone from Ottawa, but self-identify as an Edmontonian, you Cleary know very little about Calgary and it feels like you've never been there.

As much as it hurts me to say this, Calgary has matured nicely, is an incredibly wealthy city, modern, exciting and far more sophisticated than you lead to believe.

It's airport certainly benefits from Banff and the mountains as a whole, but its business community and overall high disposable incomes drive the majority of YYC.

It's also far more diversified than you seem to acknowledge and has a tech industry that is really leading the way now in partnership with 'energy' companies.

In this case, Biguc is more like a bigyoudontsee

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

As someone from Ottawa, but self-identify as an Edmontonian, you Cleary know very little about Calgary and it feels like you've never been there.

As much as it hurts me to say this, Calgary has matured nicely, is an incredibly wealthy city, modern, exciting and far more sophisticated than you lead to believe.

It's airport certainly benefits from Banff and the mountains as a whole, but its business community and overall high disposable incomes drive the majority of YYC.

It's also far more diversified than you seem to acknowledge and has a tech industry that is really leading the way now in partnership with 'energy' companies.

In this case, Biguc is more like a bigyoudontsee

Reading through all these replies, I feel many are just going with the stereotypes for Calgary. From my standpoint, the economy is far more diversified than people think. The amount of business the company I work for has changed significantly in the last 10 years. It used to be 90% O&G but now we do more work with Telecom, tech, healthcare and education.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

As someone from Ottawa, but self-identify as an Edmontonian, you Cleary know very little about Calgary and it feels like you've never been there.

As much as it hurts me to say this, Calgary has matured nicely, is an incredibly wealthy city, modern, exciting and far more sophisticated than you lead to believe.

It's airport certainly benefits from Banff and the mountains as a whole, but its business community and overall high disposable incomes drive the majority of YYC.

It's also far more diversified than you seem to acknowledge and has a tech industry that is really leading the way now in partnership with 'energy' companies.

In this case, Biguc is more like a bigyoudontsee

Counterpoint: Calgary police wear cowboy hats.

I promise we're looking at the same thing, just from drastically different perspectives. When Europeans go to Calgary, it's for oil or Banff. And oil and Banff are the fountains from which Calgary's fourthness, in the pantheon of Canadian cities, flows. Whatever provincial feathers (Telus and WestJet and shit) it's stuck in its cowboy hat aren't going to suddenly propel it beyond what it currently is. Neither will being affluent or modern.

Nor will being unsophisticated hold it back. Vancouver, for what it's worth, is not a terribly sophisticated city.

And that's really the point: who cares? This is a pointless dick measuring contest on a dated message board for skyscraper nerds that's been hijacked by whiny old men. But, if you'd like, we can fight about which city has the most people wearing yoga pants out in public and act like that matters.

Milady.

[feepa]

Originally Posted by biguc

Counterpoint: Calgary police wear cowboy hats.

I promise we're looking at the same thing, just from drastically different perspectives. When Europeans go to Calgary, it's for oil or Banff. And oil and Banff are the fountains from which Calgary's fourthness, in the pantheon of Canadian cities, flows. Whatever provincial feathers (Telus and WestJet and shit) it's stuck in its cowboy hat aren't going to suddenly propel it beyond what it currently is. Neither will being affluent or modern.

Nor will being unsophisticated hold it back. Vancouver, for what it's worth, is not a terribly sophisticated city.

And that's really the point: who cares? This is a pointless dick measuring contest on a dated message board for skyscraper nerds that's been hijacked by whiny old men. But, if you'd like, we can fight about which city has the most people wearing yoga pants out in public and act like that matters.

Milady.

It would seem like you care based on your numerous interactions on this thread. Are you the nerd or the whiny old man, or the pointless dick in this situation?

[Maldive]

Originally Posted by biguc

And that's really the point: who cares? This is a pointless dick measuring contest on a dated message board for skyscraper nerds that's been hijacked by whiny old men. But, if you'd like, we can fight about which city has the most people wearing yoga pants out in public and act like that matters.

Milady.

oh my nail meet hammer. Cheers to the "(former) skyscraper nerds" wherever they park their boats.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by Maldive

oh my nail meet hammer. Cheers to the "(former) skyscraper nerds" wherever they park their boats.

You're honestly a hero for keeping the skyscraper content alive. Thank you for your service

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by biguc

I guess the point is, does it matter? What's the fourth city in the US? San Francisco? Houston? How about in Argentina? Or Mexico? Who gives a shit, right?

I'm pretty firmly on the side of who gives a shit, but in the case of the US, I have to think that Miami is the pretty obvious, though often forgotten, 4th city.

10-15 years ago, I think Calgary would have been the undisputed 4th city of Canada, but with the oil & gas industry experiencing a relative decline and with the Calgary School becoming less relevant, it seems far less present on the mind now than it did then.

At the same time, as government now seems more tied to personality than place; Ottawa as the institution of government has receded from the forefront and been replaced by Trudeau, and I think that has led Ottawa the city to be less prominent as well.

[MonctonRad]

The US is actually quite similar to Canada in this regard. America, like us, has a well agreed upon "top three" - NYC, LA and Chicago.

I would argue the "next three" in the US are Houston, Atlanta and Washington - two regional metropoli and the national capital.

For both Canada and the US, I would give the #4 place to the national capitals. I lived in DC for a winter going to the AFIP (Armed Forces Institute of Pathology), and I have visited Ottawa often. Both cities display importance and gravitas befitting their status. This outweighs any regional metropolis, be it Houston or Calgary.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The US is actually quite similar to Canada in this regard. America, like us, has a well agreed upon "top three" - NYC, LA and Chicago.

I would argue the "next three" in the US are Houston, Atlanta and Washington - two regional metropoli and the national capital.

For both Canada and the US, I would give the #4 place to the national capitals. I lived in DC for a winter going to the AFIP (Armed Forces Institute of Pathology), and I have visited Ottawa often. Both cities display importance and gravitas befitting their status. This outweighs any regional metropolis, be it Houston or Calgary.

It's a similar vibe to Canada actually with Dallas and Houston certainly leading all the others in GDP (as do Calgary and Edmonton) and probably population depending how you measure but DC having a certain cache.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jamincan

I'm pretty firmly on the side of who gives a shit, but in the case of the US, I have to think that Miami is the pretty obvious, though often forgotten, 4th city.
.

Really? Miami's definitely top 10, but Boston and San Francisco are more important culturally, economically, historically, politically, intellectually, than Miami is.

Even Philadelphia might be more important than Miami.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

I dunno I think the recent population growth numbers cement Calgary as 4th.

Being situated next to the Rockies is going to be an eternal draw imo...especially for young people. Certainly more so than mediocre looking government buildings.

In terms of population, Metro Ottawa and Calgary (and Edmonton to a certain degree) have been battling for 4th place for many years. Until there's a half million difference between the two, I don't think either can claim the crown.

Ottawa is also a very outdoorsy city. We don't have the Rockies, but we have the Greenbelt, Gatineau Park and the Gatineau Hills nearby, the Ottawa River and we're not far from the Laurentians and Mont-Tremblant (not quite as spectacular as the Rockies, but very similar in terms of outdoor sports culture).

Originally Posted by Acajack

Really? Miami's definitely top 10, but Boston and San Francisco are more important culturally, economically, historically, politically, intellectually, than Miami is.

Even Philadelphia might be more important than Miami.

I would agree.

[Paper Boy]

Originally Posted by jamincan

I'm pretty firmly on the side of who gives a shit, but in the case of the US, I have to think that Miami is the pretty obvious, though often forgotten, 4th city.

10-15 years ago, I think Calgary would have been the undisputed 4th city of Canada, but with the oil & gas industry experiencing a relative decline and with the Calgary School becoming less relevant, it seems far less present on the mind now than it did then.

At the same time, as government now seems more tied to personality than place; Ottawa as the institution of government has receded from the forefront and been replaced by Trudeau, and I think that has led Ottawa the city to be less prominent as well.

It is definitely less present on this forum. However this is more due to the formers leaving than the City itself.

[Metro-One]

Internally, it’s Calgary, but internationally, it’s Ottawa, if that makes any sense.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Internally, it’s Calgary, but internationally, it’s Ottawa, if that makes any sense.

Not sure I buy that. Calgary is both growing faster and is more of an independent city. For example being a major air hub for both national airlines. And after the next election, it's highly likely Ottawa's growth will stall for a while.

Calgary is basically the second financial centre of the country, given it's role as home to the oil sector. I'd argue that Ottawa and Edmonton are competing for 5th place.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Internally, it’s Calgary, but internationally, it’s Ottawa, if that makes any sense.

This.

Calgary pulls way above its weight for business, investment and tourism (due to Banff.

Ottawa - national capital - nuff said.

Edmonton continues along and has bright spots with the UofA, medical and some tech, but has lost a ton of ground in terms of it being a centre for business and the current government has shifted a lot to its 'sister city' to the south.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Internally, it’s Calgary, but internationally, it’s Ottawa, if that makes any sense.

"Internationally" makes little sense IMO. For a good chunk of the world, Montreal is Canada's #1 city; for another good chunk of the world, Vancouver is Canada's #1 city.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by lio45

"Internationally" makes little sense IMO. For a good chunk of the world, Montreal is Canada's #1 city; for another good chunk of the world, Vancouver is Canada's #1 city.

National capital, embassy density, diplomats, officials, visits etc.