HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 2:55 PM
destroycreate's Avatar
destroycreate destroycreate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,630
How sketchy and pervasive is your city's visible transient/drug addict situation?

I was taking an uber from West Hollywood to DTLA's Union Station the other day, because I had to take the train down to San Diego. In that 35min uber ride, it hit me that I probably didn't go more than a few blocks at a time during the whole drive without seeing multiple homeless people, or someone walking around deranged, barefoot, and in some areas, sidewalk tents. It's staggering how omniprescent this homeless and addict situation is here. I've always lived in West Coast cities, and there was a time you'd see an occasional panhandler at an intersection, here and there, but nothing like this. The drugs out there now are just so much more hardcore and permanently brain altering than they were 15-20 years ago. As a result, you just never know anymore if they will lash out in someway.

When I got to Union Station, there were tons of security ambassadors which was nice, but the bathrooms were full of transients. Lots of mentally unwell people stumbling around down the corridors as well.

What's going on here on the west coast, particularly SoCal, really has surpassed epic crisis proportions. Even downtown San Diego near the Gaslamp and East Village has gotten much, much worse than pre 2020. It's hard to watch. If you're someone who really enjoys urban living and walkability, it definitely affects the quality of life (please spare me WeLcOmE tO cItY lIvInG, bRaH).

I'm curious to hear how is the situation is in other cities.
__________________
**23 years on SSP!**
Previously known as LaJollaCA
https://www.instagram.com/itspeterchristian/

Last edited by destroycreate; Jul 26, 2024 at 3:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 3:10 PM
giallo's Avatar
giallo giallo is offline
be nice to the crackheads
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 11,839
Vancouver has gotten a lot worse in this regard, but the Downtown Eastside still remains a huge draw for thousands of the addicted/mentally ill, so the spill over isn't as bad as LA.

Having said that, it would have been almost unheard of to see people smoking/injecting fentanyl on the westside of the city pre-COVID, but not anymore. You can find groups of people 'tranqed out' on the sidewalks of the city almost anywhere.

I live in Mount Pleasant in East Vancouver, and seeing the addicted and mentally ill is just part of daily life.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 3:23 PM
ilcapo ilcapo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 236
Its not very visible in Stockholm, Sweden. Appearantly we have some of the highest rates of deaths by overdose in the EU, so i guess most things happen behind closed doors (which might explain the relative high death rates?).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2024, 7:28 PM
kool maudit's Avatar
kool maudit kool maudit is offline
video et taceo
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 14,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilcapo View Post
Its not very visible in Stockholm, Sweden. Appearantly we have some of the highest rates of deaths by overdose in the EU, so i guess most things happen behind closed doors (which might explain the relative high death rates?).
It really isn't. I started to see a few people doing the tranq walk around Bysistorget last summer, there is also some sort of methadone clinic or something near there, so there's a bit of activity. But nothing like a North American city.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2024, 7:35 PM
ilcapo ilcapo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
It really isn't. I started to see a few people doing the tranq walk around Bysistorget last summer, there is also some sort of methadone clinic or something near there, so there's a bit of activity. But nothing like a North American city.
Growing up we had Plattan. I guess the drug scenes are more spread out nowadays and with other type of drugs that are less visible. No fentanyl or meth crisis so far.

Last edited by ilcapo; Jul 27, 2024 at 7:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 3:31 PM
destroycreate's Avatar
destroycreate destroycreate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,630
Quote:
Originally Posted by giallo View Post
Vancouver has gotten a lot worse in this regard, but the Downtown Eastside still remains a huge draw for thousands of the addicted/mentally ill, so the spill over isn't as bad as LA.

Having said that, it would have been almost unheard of to see people smoking/injecting fentanyl on the westside of the city pre-COVID, but not anymore. You can find groups of people 'tranqed out' on the sidewalks of the city almost anywhere.

I live in Mount Pleasant in East Vancouver, and seeing the addicted and mentally ill is just part of daily life.
This is very interesting to hear about Vancouver (I've been to the DT Eastside, man, what a nightmare), as a lot of people of progressives in the States will claim the issue in the US stems from lack of universal healthcare, allowing too many people who desperately need help to fall through the cracks.

My understanding is that in Canada one can get mental healthcare or addiction treatment for free, or at the very least there are much more public health resources, but that doesn't seem to reduce the situation in Vancouver. The DT Eastside has been like it is for as long as I remember, and it doesn't sound like it's improved? I realize the better climate of BC may play a part, but maybe it's also the kind of drugs running rampant here in North America?

Europe for example really doesn't appear to have a fentanyl or crystal meth crisis.
__________________
**23 years on SSP!**
Previously known as LaJollaCA
https://www.instagram.com/itspeterchristian/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 6:54 PM
pip's Avatar
pip pip is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by destroycreate View Post
This is very interesting to hear about Vancouver (I've been to the DT Eastside, man, what a nightmare), as a lot of people of progressives in the States will claim the issue in the US stems from lack of universal healthcare, allowing too many people who desperately need help to fall through the cracks.

My understanding is that in Canada one can get mental healthcare or addiction treatment for free, or at the very least there are much more public health resources, but that doesn't seem to reduce the situation in Vancouver. The DT Eastside has been like it is for as long as I remember, and it doesn't sound like it's improved? I realize the better climate of BC may play a part, but maybe it's also the kind of drugs running rampant here in North America?

Europe for example really doesn't appear to have a fentanyl or crystal meth crisis.
That may be changing in the near future. Europe got almost all it's heroin from Afghanistan. That heroin was clean so to speak, not synthetic. The Taliban has recently destroyed all the heroin crops, literally just about all, and that has cut off the supply to Europe.

Synthetic opioids, which are way worse than heroin, have started to show up in Europe this year.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 4:12 PM
mhays mhays is online now
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 20,094
Seattle has pushed a large percentage of the problem away from the Downtown core, but it's still pervasive anywhere with good bus service. City leadership and policy has been shifting toward the center for a couple years, helping offset the general rising tide.

A lack of healthcare in the US is a huge issue. Not debatable. It's not a panacea however, as Vancouver et al are finding out. Neither country is putting fent-addicts or the mentally ill into involuntary treatment (which I'd absolutely support). People still have to want to treatment and many don't. In the US we have tiny capacity either way.

Seattle has been working on many fronts. Some highlights off the top of my head:
--We spend a lot on supportive housing, adding quite a few buildings even since Covid (building new, buying hotels, etc.).
--The UW just opened a behavioral health teaching/treatment hospital.
--We've made certain drug offenses crimes again, and found new ways to crack down on theft.
--Yesterday the City and County made a deal to finally provide jail capacity for misdemeanor crimes, a huge key to turning things around.
--We're increasing incentives to hire more cops.
--The State now requires every city to allow shelters and supportive housing anywhere hotels and apartments are allowed, which is helping diffuse the effects.
--The County will soon open five walk-in mental-health crisis centers.

Much of our issue is that a large percentage of homeless are on the streets vs. in shelters. NYC for example is the opposite.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 6:18 PM
Dale Dale is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 4,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Seattle has pushed a large percentage of the problem away from the Downtown core, but it's still pervasive anywhere with good bus service. City leadership and policy has been shifting toward the center for a couple years, helping offset the general rising tide.

A lack of healthcare in the US is a huge issue. Not debatable. It's not a panacea however, as Vancouver et al are finding out. Neither country is putting fent-addicts or the mentally ill into involuntary treatment (which I'd absolutely support). People still have to want to treatment and many don't. In the US we have tiny capacity either way.

Seattle has been working on many fronts. Some highlights off the top of my head:
--We spend a lot on supportive housing, adding quite a few buildings even since Covid (building new, buying hotels, etc.).
--The UW just opened a behavioral health teaching/treatment hospital.
--We've made certain drug offenses crimes again, and found new ways to crack down on theft.
--Yesterday the City and County made a deal to finally provide jail capacity for misdemeanor crimes, a huge key to turning things around.
--We're increasing incentives to hire more cops.
--The State now requires every city to allow shelters and supportive housing anywhere hotels and apartments are allowed, which is helping diffuse the effects.
--The County will soon open five walk-in mental-health crisis centers.

Much of our issue is that a large percentage of homeless are on the streets vs. in shelters. NYC for example is the opposite.
Flying through Seattle, Wednesday, the Seattle Times led with an article on the conflict between the city and county regarding the incarceration of street criminals. Essentially, the city is pushing a harder line than is the county, the reverse of what I might have expected.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 4:44 PM
LA21st LA21st is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by destroycreate View Post
I was taking an uber from West Hollywood to DTLA's Union Station the other day, because I had to take the train down to San Diego. In that 35min uber ride, it hit me that I probably didn't go more than a few blocks at a time during the whole drive without seeing multiple homeless people, or someone walking around deranged, barefoot, and in some areas, sidewalk tents. It's staggering how omniprescent this homeless and addict situation is here. I've always lived in West Coast cities, and there was a time you'd see an occasional panhandler at an intersection, here and there, but nothing like this. The drugs out there now are just so much more hardcore and permanently brain altering than they were 15-20 years ago. As a result, you just never know anymore if they will lash out in someway.

When I got to Union Station, there were tons of security ambassadors which was nice, but the bathrooms were full of transients. Lots of mentally unwell people stumbling around down the corridors as well.

What's going on here on the west coast, particularly SoCal, really has surpassed epic crisis proportions. Even downtown San Diego near the Gaslamp and East Village has gotten much, much worse than pre 2020. It's hard to watch. If you're someone who really enjoys urban living and walkability, it definitely affects the quality of life (please spare me WeLcOmE tO cItY lIvInG, bRaH).

I'm curious to hear how is the situation is in other cities.
More than a few blocks lmao. I think youre seeing shit at this point. Name this street please. Im on Santa Monica Blvd all the time. Stop your bs.

And this is like the 5th time youve posted this topic and its always some over dramatic nonsense.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 5:16 PM
destroycreate's Avatar
destroycreate destroycreate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,630
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA21st View Post
More than a few blocks lmao. I think youre seeing shit at this point. Name this street please. Im on Santa Monica Blvd all the time. Stop your bs.

And this is like the 5th time youve posted this topic and its always some over dramatic nonsense.
Lol babe I walk my dog on Santa Monica Blvd daily, I live in WeHo, there are plenty of homeless people in WeHo along on the streets. Even Beverly Blvd.

You're in such denial of this issue, and I happen to l live in a good part of town. Going east of La Brea, it gets worse and worse on main boulevards particularly Koreatown onward.

I just don't even believe you live in LA, given how out of touch you seem. Go to r/LosAngeles in Reddit and it's almost a daily discussion.
__________________
**23 years on SSP!**
Previously known as LaJollaCA
https://www.instagram.com/itspeterchristian/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 5:25 PM
LA21st LA21st is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by destroycreate View Post
Lol babe I walk my dog on Santa Monica Blvd daily, I live in WeHo, there are plenty of homeless people in WeHo along on the streets. Even Beverly Blvd.

You're in such denial of this issue, and I happen to l live in a good part of town. Going east of La Brea, it gets worse and worse on main boulevards particularly Koreatown onward.

I just don't even believe you live in LA, given how out of touch you seem. Go to r/LosAngeles in Reddit and it's almost a daily discussion.
Sure bud. Ill be in West Hollywood tomorrow actually.

I'm on reddit and it usally over dramatic like you

Is there a reason why you post the same topics over and over? Its kinda of weird. And your DC post was funny, like you totally ignored all the problems. Isnt negative your thing?
Im from DC. That place is nothing like it was. Maybe you should go on DC's reddit and see all the talk about their violence and empty storefronts. Its not just a daily discussion, its almost a hourly discussion. Just a thought. You want negative, maybe you hear should everything.

Youre also the same person who said LA's oceanfront isn't "open" like Miami yet the bike trail/boardwalk there is way more popular than anything in Florida. Huh. I saw a this video in Miami Beach bike trail and it looked so empty and quiet. Dead even. People in SOCAL would wonder where the hell the people are. San Clemente's path looked more vibrant than most of miami beach, north of 18th street. Yikes.

Last edited by LA21st; Jul 26, 2024 at 6:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 5:29 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 10,414
Me to the Angelenos whenever the OP makes a post about Los Angeles:

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 7:32 PM
destroycreate's Avatar
destroycreate destroycreate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,630
Quote:
I'm on reddit and it usally over dramatic like you
There's a reason why it's talked about endlessly, from Reddit, to City Data, the LA Times, and even nationwide news - because it's a thing, bro. I don't know what your reality you're living in, but there's not a single person living in LA that wouldn't agree that the homeless epidemic and open air drug use is completely out of control, and has really soured the quality of life here. According to the Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority, an estimated 75,312 people experienced homeless in Los Angeles County in 2024. Your previous declarations that DTLA is barely overrun with homeless people and something you just don't really see on the streets simply doesn't align with what pretty much anybody living here would say.

Quote:
Youre also the same person who said LA's oceanfront isn't "open" like Miami yet the bike trail/boardwalk there is way more popular than anything in Florida. Huh. I saw a this video in Miami Beach bike trail and it looked so empty and quiet. Dead even. People in SOCAL would wonder where the hell the people are. San Clemente's path looked more vibrant than most of miami beach, north of 18th street. Yikes.
You've got a huge boner for Miami (and that thread from 4 years ago) dude, just admit it.
__________________
**23 years on SSP!**
Previously known as LaJollaCA
https://www.instagram.com/itspeterchristian/

Last edited by destroycreate; Jul 26, 2024 at 7:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 7:38 PM
LA21st LA21st is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by destroycreate View Post
You've got a huge boner for Miami (and that thread from 4 years ago) dude, just admit it.
I remember beceause it was one of the dumbest things on this forum. Nobody on earth would agree with that. Venice/SM is like 6-7 miles of "open" beachfront and on the weekends, busy the entire stretch. And thats not including all the South Bay, OC etc stuff either.

I mentioned it here because it proves you have some weird restentment to LA .. Maybe if you werent so over over the top youd get a better response. You try to frame things as "everything is bad".

Are the homeless in Union Station. Yea, there are. Just like in Chicago, DC, NYC. But theres tons of normal people, just like in those cities. Im from DC. I like their union station.
But they've had homeless issues in and around there since the 90s. Oh, you will find reddit topics on homeless in dc union stations btw. Youll see them slumped over on the ground outside the metro station ffs.

Last edited by LA21st; Jul 26, 2024 at 7:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 5:49 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 3,021
^
"like what?"

"like this! this some repugnant shit!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5iscguu52w&t=34s
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 6:10 PM
Innsertnamehere's Avatar
Innsertnamehere Innsertnamehere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 11,917
It's pervasive in Canada too and has also gotten significantly worse in the last 5 years.

Walking around downtown Hamilton and probably over 50% of people on the street fit this "type". People actively using, defecating, etc.

And it's everywhere. I was sitting on a street patio yesterday in Toronto and some woman came up and started ranting to us, clearly high.. we had to move. That kind of thing just didn't happen pre-2020.

It's also starting to appear even in smaller communities, with cities not used to having visible homelessness at all suddenly having open drug use and homelessness.

The other problem is encampments. These were basically non-existent out of very limited circumstances in Ontario pre-2020. They are everywhere now. Basically every City Park in Hamilton has them. What makes it worse is that the City enables and permits it. And again, they are popping up everywhere.

The Encampments I think were "enabled" by COVID where municipalities started tolerating them due to concerns of disease spread in shelters, and now they can't really go back..

The wider issue in Canada I think can be attributed to a few things:

1. increasing spreads of hard drug use which is increasing rates of financial and mental instability (this is ultimately the big one)
2. decreasing rates of incarceration for petty crimes, which traditionally has held some of this population off the streets in prison
3. decreasing housing affordability and rapid loss of deeply affordable housing units, including units such as rooming houses, etc. which has traditionally provided space for the population 

California and Vancouver are magnets for it and get the brunt of it I think because of their climates. Being homeless in Toronto involves sleeping through -20c nights or cramming into an overcrowded shelter - not the case in Vancouver. Similar conditions south of the border.

I genuinely don't believe universal healthcare has much to do with it. This population places an enormous strain on the healthcare system as it is. Both Toronto and Hamilton have hospitals which seem to mostly deal with this population and are miserable hospitals for anyone outside of the population because of it and have huge problems, and appear to do little to set these people on paths to a stable life. I do imagine it being universal reduces fatality rates, but in a rather morbid view all that does is keep the population higher, not helping them get stability.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 7:01 PM
austlar1 austlar1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Austin
Posts: 3,476
It is strangely less visible here in Austin. Just a few years ago large numbers of homeless and tent encampments were to be found underneath all the overhead freeways throughout the city and also in parks and trails closer to the center. There have always been homeless encampments on vacant land (wooded areas especially) within about a 6 mile radius from the center of town. I suspect none of that has changed much, but the visible homeless population and a lot of the squalor associated with it has disappeared from view to a large extent. You'll still see a stray tent or three set up at various places around town, especially around highways 290 and 183 on the NE and North side of town, but the numbers have declined greatly. Even the large numbers of homeless on the sidewalks around the ARCH resource center have diminished to just a few dozen at any one time. There are still a lot of presumably homeless sign flyers at major intersections. That's been the case for at least two decades, so I don't really factor that into my assessment of local homeless situation. Things seemed to improve after the old city manager, who largely ignored the issue, was fired, and a former mayor (Kirk Watson) returned to office. Austin's mayor has little real power, but he is clearly not interested in coddling the homeless population. I think a large number of homeless have been housed in motels throughout the region, and supposedly a lot of homeless are utilizing the large state run encampment located somewhere on the SE side of town. I don't know how many have recieved housing in motels, and I am doubtful that the state run encampment is actually that well utilized. Since there is so much hard core drug addiction and/or mental illness in the homeless population, it seems doubtful that long term housing in motels will work for these people. I'm really at a loss to explain the decline in visible homelessness here in Austin, but I have to admit it's a huge and welcome improvement.

Last edited by austlar1; Jul 26, 2024 at 7:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2024, 3:11 AM
AviationGuy AviationGuy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 5,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
It is strangely less visible here in Austin. Just a few years ago large numbers of homeless and tent encampments were to be found underneath all the overhead freeways throughout the city and also in parks and trails closer to the center. There have always been homeless encampments on vacant land (wooded areas especially) within about a 6 mile radius from the center of town. I suspect none of that has changed much, but the visible homeless population and a lot of the squalor associated with it has disappeared from view to a large extent. You'll still see a stray tent or three set up at various places around town, especially around highways 290 and 183 on the NE and North side of town, but the numbers have declined greatly. Even the large numbers of homeless on the sidewalks around the ARCH resource center have diminished to just a few dozen at any one time. There are still a lot of presumably homeless sign flyers at major intersections. That's been the case for at least two decades, so I don't really factor that into my assessment of local homeless situation. Things seemed to improve after the old city manager, who largely ignored the issue, was fired, and a former mayor (Kirk Watson) returned to office. Austin's mayor has little real power, but he is clearly not interested in coddling the homeless population. I think a large number of homeless have been housed in motels throughout the region, and supposedly a lot of homeless are utilizing the large state run encampment located somewhere on the SE side of town. I don't know how many have recieved housing in motels, and I am doubtful that the state run encampment is actually that well utilized. Since there is so much hard core drug addiction and/or mental illness in the homeless population, it seems doubtful that long term housing in motels will work for these people. I'm really at a loss to explain the decline in visible homelessness here in Austin, but I have to admit it's a huge and welcome improvement.
I noticed the same during my last visit (I left Austin in January). Several years ago, it was horrible. Just like you said. Just about every underpass was tent cities and piles of garbage everywhere, including adjacent to the Arboretum, which I understand was losing business. A 55+ apartment community was having trouble with leasing because people didn't want to live a block from the mess. The area around Ben White and Westgate/Menchaca was bad before any other area. Downtown businesses were really suffering. We even had some tents set up right in my neighborhood, about 50 ft from homes. I agree the homeless seem to have found other places. I noticed trails leading into the woods in several areas, like a long Braker between Mopac and 183. You could always tell, because there would be a bunch of shopping carts and trash at the entrances.

From everything I read, Austin still has a huge problem, but it isn't as visible, I would agree.

I live in Cypress now, a Houston suburb of about 250,000. In six months, I've never seen any tents anywhere, and have seen maybe a couple of transients on street corners. E.g., the intersection of 290 and Barker-Cypress. My guess is that the population and law enforcement in Cypress would never tolerate what has happened in Austin. It's even unusual to see any litter here, and the medians are all landscaped and maintained. In Austin the medians were trashed out anywhere they were close to a tent city, and there was no budget allocated to cleaning up all the trash. There are things I miss about not living in Austin, but I'm loving how much cleaner this place is.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2024, 8:24 PM
hauntedheadnc's Avatar
hauntedheadnc hauntedheadnc is offline
A gruff individual.
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Greenville, SC - "Birthplace of the light switch rave"
Posts: 14,127
Well, I can tell you that heroin is pretty much impossible to get here in this area. It's all fentanyl. And increasingly, fentanyl is getting edged out by xylazine.

Generally speaking, around here if you see someone looking drawn and crusty it's meth. If they look like they're actively decaying it's xylazine.
__________________
“It was miraculous. It was almost no trick at all, he saw, to turn vice into virtue and slander into truth, impotence into abstinence, arrogance into humility, plunder into philanthropy, thievery into honor, blasphemy into wisdom, brutality into patriotism, and sadism into justice. Anybody could do it; it required no brains at all. It merely required no character.” -- Joseph Heller, Catch-22
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:23 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.