Halifax's booming population puts a squeeze on performance venues

[Keith P.]

Story here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...ifax-1.7150067


This is something that has been discussed for a long time given that the Cohn is too small and poorly situated for many events, and the Metro Centre too big and less than ideal for many acts. Another opportunity missed by HRM in spending their treasure trove of tax dollars, instead preferring to hire more bureaucrats and to build bike lanes and 4-pad hockey rinks instead.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

I'm inclined to think that the Forum/post office site on Almon St. is better suited to be a stadium/performance centre location than it is housing development. Perhaps a central parkade with a stadium facing Robie and a performance centre facing Windsor?

[HarbingerDe]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

I'm inclined to think that the Forum/post office site on Almon St. is better suited to be a stadium/performance centre location than it is housing development. Perhaps a central parkade with a stadium facing Robie and a performance centre facing Windsor?

Why have 5,000+ new housing units when you could have a stadium and a parkade!!??

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by HarbingerDe

Why have 5,000+ new housing units when you could have a stadium and a parkade!!??

Because building a city without adequate leisure facilities makes it less enjoyable to live there?

Why not increase FAR for sites yet to be built so that we have land available to build a city with facilities for the people to use and enjoy? Stuffing housing on every square metre isn't necessarily the best outcome.

Then, perhaps if we weren't bringing in new population as quickly as possible, builders could catch up and increase housing supply so that we could ease out of the housing crisis and maybe even pricing could drop due to less demand and more supply... but that's another story.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Because building a city without adequate leisure facilities makes it less enjoyable to live there?

Why not increase FAR for sites yet to be built so that we have land available to build a city with facilities for the people to use and enjoy? Stuffing housing on every square metre isn't necessarily the best outcome.

Then, perhaps if we weren't bringing in new population as quickly as possible, builders could catch up and increase housing supply so that we could ease out of the housing crisis and maybe even pricing could drop due to less demand and more supply... but that's another story.

I can understand why good people are passionate about the housing crisis we are experiencing as it's front and centre pretty much everyday right now. To your first point, I'm completely onside in that we should not fail to plan for the future while working on a resolution to a current (and temporary) problem. A site such as the Forum/post office is the last of its kind in what is pretty much the smack dab centre of the peninsula.

It's your second point I can't yet reconcile in my mind. As a retired boomer who still occupies a home should I be out there building a home for the worker that replaces me? Aren't we at a point where perhaps most (or certainly a large share of) homes are occupied by non working boomers and yet our previous work still exists and requires employees who have to live somewhere...but not my home? And like there was once a boom in births won't there soon be a boom in deaths leaving many homes empty? I have wondered if the media is shying away from stories on a boom of deaths not wanting to offend or scare-off the (old) readers/customers they have remaining? Anyway, this looks to be a major issue in a not too far off federal election.

[GTG_78]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

[/B]
It's your second point I can't yet reconcile in my mind. As a retired boomer who still occupies a home should I be out there building a home for the worker that replaces me? Aren't we at a point where perhaps most (or certainly a large share of) homes are occupied by non working boomers and yet our previous work still exists and requires employees who have to live somewhere...but not my home? And like there was once a boom in births won't there soon be a boom in deaths leaving many homes empty? I have wondered if the media is shying away from stories on a boom of deaths not wanting to offend or scare-off the (old) readers/customers they have remaining? Anyway, this looks to be a major issue in a not too far off federal election.

One of the underlying causes of the current housing crisis is decades of bad policy. But the bigger cause by far is the number of new immigrants, permanent residents, and non-permanent residents that require housing. Canada has experienced one of the fastest population increases in the world. Not the Western world - the world. We simply do not have the capacity to build our way out of this at the current rate.

[Nouvellecosse]

Well, we need both housing as well as the services, infrastructure, and amenities to support the population. Housing is much easier to shoe-horn into smaller plots of land here and there while large venues require bigger expanses which tend to be less common, particularly in central areas. That said, a lot of large venues can be made as mixed use developments, with things like housing, retail, offices, or hotel integrated with them.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Well, we need both housing as well as the services, infrastructure, and amenities to support the population. Housing is much easier to shoe-horn into smaller plots of land here and there while large venues require bigger expanses which tend to be less common, particularly in central areas. That said, a lot of large venues can be made as mixed use developments, with things like housing, retail, offices, or hotel integrated with them.

I'm not sure our local developers have the experience with mixed use developments to pull off stadium-slash-theatre-slash-performance-venue-slash-parking-slash-multi-unit-residential.

[TheCuriousMind]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

I'm not sure our local developers have the experience with mixed use developments to pull off stadium-slash-theatre-slash-performance-venue-slash-parking-slash-multi-unit-residential.

Could hire the guys that built up the bell centre area in Montreal ... one of the world's premiere hockey stadiums surrounded by 50 storey condo towers on what used to be an urban railyard / train station. It can be done, but in Halifax, it won't be, probably just more 4 storey buildings and surface parking lots and anti-urban nimbys cheering as the city swirls the drain

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by TheCuriousMind

It can be done, but in Halifax, it won't be, probably just more 4 storey buildings and surface parking lots and anti-urban nimbys cheering as the city swirls the drain

Where does this perception of the city come from? We've got more highrises under construction than just about any city below 1 milllion population in the country, with the exception of places like Mississauga and Richmond, which are suburban satellites within larger metros. Building projects are leaps and bounds more ambitious in terms of design and scale than they were in the recent past, and the zoning changes proposed by the city to achive the Housing Accelerator Fund goals are honestly among the most substantial ones proposed by any city in the country. And the handful of same-old vocal NIMBYs have essentially no political influence and achieve basically nothing. Things aren't perfect but it's also not 1995 anymore.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by TheCuriousMind

Could hire the guys that built up the bell centre area in Montreal ... one of the world's premiere hockey stadiums surrounded by 50 storey condo towers on what used to be an urban railyard / train station. It can be done, but in Halifax, it won't be, probably just more 4 storey buildings and surface parking lots and anti-urban nimbys cheering as the city swirls the drain

As an ex-Haligonian, I visit once in awhile to re-asses a possible move back home. The city is immeasurably nicer and more cosmopolitan than it was before but the deal breaker continues to be how auto-centric Halifax remains. That a place like Dartmouth Crossing was allowed to be built just left me shaking my head.

I remember it taking 50 minutes to get to Dalhousie from Clayton Park on a weekday morning. It's only gotten worse since then. Halifax needs LRT and it really needs to go in a tunnel like Toronto's Eglinton Crosstown. Halifax is a much smaller metro and it would be massively expensive but congestion won't get fixed without it. If 500,000 person metros in Europe can do this, so can Halifax.

The stadium? Well yes, the 42 year wait (and counting) for a CFL team is a reminder of why I left in the first place. Life's too short to wait around decades for things to happen. I'm not saying no CFL was what decided things, but it was one of many things. At some point, you just give up. I'll stick to summer vacations to Halifax.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by isaidso

As an ex-Haligonian, I visit once in awhile to re-asses a possible move back home. The city is immeasurably nicer and more cosmopolitan than it was before but the deal breaker continues to be how auto-centric Halifax remains. That a place like Dartmouth Crossing was allowed to be built just left me shaking my head.

I remember it taking 50 minutes to get to Dalhousie from Clayton Park on a weekday morning. It's only gotten worse since then. Halifax needs LRT and it really needs to go in a tunnel like Toronto's Eglinton Crosstown. Halifax is a much smaller metro and it would be massively expensive but congestion won't get fixed without it. If 500,000 people metros in Europe can do this, so can Halifax.

The stadium? Well yes, the 42 year wait (and counting) for a CFL team is a reminder of why I left in the first place. Life's too short to wait around decades for things to happen. I'm not saying no CFL was what decided things, but it was one of many things. At some point, you just give up. I'll stick to summer vacations to Halifax.

Great points. Halifax has been horrific on developing new and better transit options. Curiously, even on progressive-thinking forums like this one, even when they do bring about a new transit option (the new high-speed ferry system), it's criticized as not being good enough... so there's obviously still a lot of small town mentality here.

The struggle to get a stadium is another point. People argue that it costs too much money, or that potential sites would be better suited for housing, and that sites like Dartmouth Crossing aren't urban enough and would also be a mistake. It can be confusing to wade through, but all we need to know is that no progress happens in the meantime.

All that being said, it's important for a person to understand what is important to their own lives, and it sounds like you've made the right decision to move away and stay away. I often wonder why some of the folks who constantly complain about Halifax continue to live here, actually. Meanwhile our population continues to increase and housing continues to become more expensive and less available. For me, I've visited many cities, and evaluated their positives and negatives... and decided that Halifax is still the place where I want to live over the others... for now, at least.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by isaidso

As an ex-Haligonian, I visit once in awhile to re-asses a possible move back home. The city is immeasurably nicer and more cosmopolitan than it was before but the deal breaker continues to be how auto-centric Halifax remains. That a place like Dartmouth Crossing was allowed to be built just left me shaking my head.

I remember it taking 50 minutes to get to Dalhousie from Clayton Park on a weekday morning. It's only gotten worse since then. Halifax needs LRT and it really needs to go in a tunnel like Toronto's Eglinton Crosstown. Halifax is a much smaller metro and it would be massively expensive but congestion won't get fixed without it. If 500,000 person metros in Europe can do this, so can Halifax.

The stadium? Well yes, the 42 year wait (and counting) for a CFL team is a reminder of why I left in the first place. Life's too short to wait around decades for things to happen. I'm not saying no CFL was what decided things, but it was one of many things. At some point, you just give up. I'll stick to summer vacations to Halifax.

Fortunately we could achieve a lot with a much shorter underground stretch. Maybe 3km compared to Eglinton's 10km. But we absolutely can't fix the mobility problems without a bold stance that will either piss off a lot of people (like policies that reduce the number of cars on the road and dedicate more space to transit), cost a lot of money (like building a rail system), or both. Well, assuming we don't want to wreck the city by razing swathes of stuff for wider streets, highways, and parking.

[Keith P.]

Every election has the usual suspects in the media and in places like this standing on the sidelines pointing a finger at the opposition leader saying “Oooooh!!! Baaaad!!!”. In reality they almost never are and only make changes that tinker around the edges. JT has been a disaster so I wouldn’t worry about his successor being worse. To do that would be a Herculean effort.

[OldDartmouthMark]

TBH, pulling PP into the conversation sounds a little like whattaboutism. Sure, he hasn't impressed (not me, at least), but shooting him down before he has had a chance at the helm doesn't seem to make much sense. The person (team, actually) currently in power has already proven to make a mess of things, so the old 'fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me' adage seems to come into play here.

As mentioned, it took a team of people without foresight/ability/knowledge (hopefully not malicious intent or silly politics as alluded to) to make this happen. If one is not a fan of PP (I'm not), one can at least hope that he will have a team surrounding him that will keep things in check. We won't know unless we try. I honestly can't see how it would be any worse, but I've been wrong before.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

TBH, pulling PP into the conversation sounds a little like whattaboutism. Sure, he hasn't impressed (not me, at least), but shooting him down before he has had a chance at the helm doesn't seem to make much sense. The person (team, actually) currently in power has already proven to make a mess of things, so the old 'fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me' adage seems to come into play here.

As mentioned, it took a team of people without foresight/ability/knowledge (hopefully not malicious intent or silly politics as alluded to) to make this happen. If one is not a fan of PP (I'm not), one can at least hope that he will have a team surrounding him that will keep things in check. We won't know unless we try. I honestly can't see how it would be any worse, but I've been wrong before.

Until he cuts all the programs Canadians hold dear. Honestly, I don't think people understand what we are in for. Hopefully it comes out in the election.

Also, all he does is attack. I have no idea what his solution are for anything? Other than rail against Justin and the Liberals.

If he was the government right now we would be in the exact same situation, but worse. Inflation would still be high, we would still have a housing crises, and the supports to help people through would not be there.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Until he cuts all the programs Canadians hold dear. Honestly, I don't think people understand what we are in for. Hopefully it comes out in the election.

Also, all he does is attack. I have no idea what his solution are for anything? Other than rail against Justin and the Liberals.

If he was the government right now we would be in the exact same situation, but worse. Inflation would still be high, we would still have a housing crises, and the supports to help people through would not be there.

There's always so much speculation and partisanship surrounding elections and politics in general, that in the end most of it comes down to opinion... it's politics after all.

As to which party would be best in power, or which "leader" we should want to prop up as a representative of our country, I say the pickings are slim, but it's no secret the the current crew has made a mess of things. We can speculate as to what it might be like if another little-known quantity was in place, but nobody will really know until it happens... then we can complain about him/them and vote them out after one or two terms, or whatever. For me it's not really worth debating.

[Nouvellecosse]

It's just ridiculous on so many different levels it's hard to even respond. Beyond the systemic, historic inequality part of it, there's also that the vast majority of men are not landlord, business people or military personnel. Men are everything - doctors, lawyers, teachers, bus and taxi drivers, food delivery guys, janitors, waiters, engineers, you name it. So the idea that say, a store clerk is thinking to himself, "the government isn't being nice enough to my landlord, and since the my landlord is male (as are many other landlords), and I am also male, therefore I should vote for a government that will coddle my landlord.

And even the basic premise that the government isn't "respecting" those sectors of society is pretty shaky. For instance, the current housing crisis is absolutely wonderful for landlords because it has driven up prices so substantially. Yes in some jurisdictions there are regulations that limit how much rents can be increased. But even so, having a low vacancy rate greatly benefits landlords because they can pick and choose exactly who they want to lease to, don't lose money due to periods of vacancy, and don't need to spend much on advertising, promotions or incentives to attract renters, etc.

[pchipman]

Anyway, getting back to the thread topic...outgrowing the current crop of performance venues is a bit of a good problem to have, though this would really limit the growth and expression of Nova Scotian culture if alternative spaces aren't created soon.

A concert hall on the waterfront would be ideal, though perhaps unlikely. What is the current state of the Salter St. lot development? Incorporating a performance space into an eventual signature development would be a major addition to the city.

[rdaner]

Great thread. Just a note from Toronto. The same pressures on venues is being felt here. One of the things that I have noticed is that smaller venues are popping up on the edge of the pre ww2 city in older warehouses and even auto body shops. Also colleges and universities are picking up slack by uprgrading or building new venues often with several halls of various sizes.