Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Kevin O'Leary was born and bred in Montreal.

Yeah but the real distinction that matters isn't whether someone is Montreal-born or not, it's whether they're Québécois or Anglo.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah but the real distinction that matters isn't whether someone is Montreal-born or not, it's whether they're Québécois or Anglo.

ah ha! Anglos cannot be Quebecois, just as I long suspected.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

ah ha! Anglos cannot be Quebecois, just as I long suspected.

They are more than welcome to be Quebeckers. (I should know, I'm in a stable long-term relationship with one )

But yeah, "Québécois", especially with those two acute accents (letters that don't even exist in the English language), I'd limit that to Francophones. I don't see this as impolitely exclusionary, rather it's just a matter of accuracy. People are what they are, not what they wish they were.

So if you ever catch me (spoiler alert: you won't) say something like "Le Québec aux Québécois!!!", then you can conclude I'm being anti-Anglo there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

They are more than welcome to be Quebeckers. (I should know, I'm in a stable long-term relationship with one )

But yeah, "Québécois", especially with those two acute accents (letters that don't even exist in the English language), I'd limit that to Francophones. I don't see this as impolitely exclusionary, rather it's just a matter of accuracy. People are what they are, not what they wish they were.

So if you ever catch me (spoiler alert: you won't) say something like "Le Québec aux Québécois!!!", then you can conclude I'm being anti-Anglo there.

Anglophones who have a pretty good fluency in French (though not necessarily unaccented) and "fit in" seamlessly with francophone Quebec, are also considered "Québécois" by most everyone (ie the French term, with accents aigus on the Es). People like Brian Mulroney, Thomas Mulcair, Corey Hart, the McGarrigle sisters, Jasey-Jay Anderson, Mike Bossy, Pat Burns, Nanette Workman, Judy Richards, Oliver Jones, Dickie Moore, Lawrence Cannon, Marlene Jennings, etc. come to mind.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

So if you ever catch me (spoiler alert: you won't) say something like "Le Québec aux Québécois!!!", then you can conclude I'm being anti-Anglo there.

Don't you have a non-Québécois (see, I can insert the accents when I cut and paste) ethnic side? Which makes you only half-Québécois, using your definition?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Don't you have a non-Québécois (see, I can insert the accents when I cut and paste) ethnic side? Which makes you only half-Québécois, using your definition?

You should ask him if that makes him fearful of or uneasy in the society where he lives?

(BTW I also have that different, non-Québécois side. It's actually predominant in my case.)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

(BTW I also have that different, non-Québécois side. It's actually predominant in my case.)

Self identification is a personal choice. We all want to feel "part of the tribe." With you, you have chosen to be Quebecois, which required at least a bit of assimilation into the culture.

Molson on the other hand apparently resents, or at least does not see the need for assimilation to be considered a Quebecois. I would say that he loves and appreciates Quebec society, but wants to retain his anglophone identity. The fact that if he still lived in Quebec he would be forced to make a choice he finds an abomination.

This is my take on the matter.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Don't you have a non-Québécois (see, I can insert the accents when I cut and paste) ethnic side? Which makes you only half-Québécois, using your definition?

Oh, of course. I'm most definitely only 50% "Québécois de souche" (and have always known and admitted that). That's cold hard fact and no amount of wishful thinking on my part will ever change that.

Now, do I think less of myself because of that? No. Do I feel unwelcome in the province? No.

I'm Québécois though. Just not full "de souche".

Just like if I moved to Poland and permanently settled there and married a Polish girl and became fluent in the language, I'd be "Polish" at that point, but I would never ever be an "old stock ethnic Pole" at any point in the rest of my life even if I live to be 120 years old.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

"Québécois", especially with those two acute accents (letters that don't even exist in the English language), I'd limit that to Francophones.

four legs good, two legs better.

[Frntenac]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

ah ha! Anglos cannot be Quebecois, just as I long suspected.

They can, but they don't want to.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Frntenac

They can, but they don't want to.

and you know this for a fact?

Using your black and white dichotomy couldn't the same thing be said about Québécois? that they could be Canadien (ian for Anglos), but they don't want to?

Which is equally absurd.

I'm sure Liojack has a clever riposte waiting for me. Dig in, and never give ground. Argue until the cows come home. In other words, wear people down with silly logical algebra (if X is ___ then Y is ____, and group Z is____), red herrings, false dichotomies and the self-serving, alternative Merriam-Webster definitions.

Somehow I cannot speak for my home province. Which pisses me off to no end. Anyone that knows me, on SSP or anywhere else, knows that I am fiercely proud of my Quebec roots. I am not going to be put in my 'place'.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

and you know this for a fact?

Well, those looking for downward social mobility are a bit niche, no?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Well, those looking for downward social mobility are a bit niche, no?

That's actually borderline racist, isn't it?

Because it's 2020!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

and you know this for a fact?

Using your black and white dichotomy couldn't the same thing be said about Québécois? that they could be Canadien (ian for Anglos), but they don't want to?

Which is equally absurd.

I'm sure Liojack has a clever riposte waiting for me. Dig in, and never give ground. Argue until the cows come home. In other words, wear people down with silly logical algebra (if X is ___ then Y is ____, and group Z is____), red herrings, false dichotomies and the self-serving, alternative Merriam-Webster definitions.

Somehow I cannot speak for my home province. Which pisses me off to no end. Anyone that knows me, on SSP or anywhere else, knows that I am fiercely proud of my Quebec roots. I am not going to be put in my 'place'.

No one has EVER attempted to prevent you from having your say on here. On Quebec or anything else.

(I can't say the same for me, unfortunately.)

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

That's quite unsurprising, though.

Similarly, the state identity of, say, Kansas is mostly going to be about currently living within the state borders of Kansas, while if you're with deep roots from the 50th State (Hawaiian) or from the 51st State (Puerto Rican) then there'll be an added element of cultural identity for you.

Guy from Kansas moves to Nebraska, he's pretty much become "a Nebraskan" within at most a few years of continuously living there.

(WASP) Guy from Kansas moves to Puerto Rico, he's still not Puerto Rican.

... we're on the same page there?

Disagree. To illustrate my point, imagine your typical ponderous NY Times think piece. This time it's about Puerto Rico. They talk to a man who has lived in San Juan for over 40 years after growing up in Kansas. Are they going to present him as an ex-pat from Kansas? Probably not... it would not make sense to do that if he hasn't been in Kansas since Jimmy Carter was the US president. I think at that point it would be fair to describe him as Puerto Rican... i.e. someone domiciled in Puerto Rico, who is invested there, probably has close family and social ties there. I mean, I'm sure some guys hanging out on the steps of a café might disagree and insist that he isn't a "real Puerto Rican" like them, but who cares... you will always find someone playing that game somewhere.

Now that said, I don't consider this rule absolute. It would be much harder to apply it to a country where nationality and ethnicity are joined at the hip like your favourite example, Poland, or Japan or what have you. Eddie from Kansas still wouldn't be considered Japanese even after living 60 years in Kobe and raising a family there. But places like Puerto Rico and Quebec are not at the same level in that regard... at least from what I can see.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Using your black and white dichotomy couldn't the same thing be said about Québécois? that they could be Canadien (ian for Anglos), but they don't want to?
.

Those Québécois who don't fit into the "Average Canadian" image don't claim ownership of it, and don't complain about not being included in it.

In fact, some of them even revel in the idea that they're not "Canadian".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

and you know this for a fact?

'.

What you responded to was "they can, but they don't want to".

Numerous living identifiable people confirm by their very existence that there is a non-assimilationist path for anglophones to be accepted as Québécois.

So yes, "they can".

As for "wanting to", we have no idea what's in the mind of every individual, or what their motivations are. So we can't speculate on that.

[lio45]

MolsonEx's uncle who lives in Lévis would be a good example showing how "Québécois Status" is easily achievable by people of British Isles ancestry.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

MolsonEx's uncle who lives in Lévis would be a good example showing how "Québécois Status" is easily achievable by people of British Isles ancestry.

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

It's not just an anglophone problem..........