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Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 1:50 PM
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Talking Winnipeg in top 10 for affordability

We’re one cheap city
Winnipeg in top 10 for affordability


Mon Jan 22 2007 - Winnipeg Free Press

By Jen Skerritt

THE cost of buying a home in Winnipeg has jumped, but a new study says it's still one of the most affordable cities to live in. For the second year in a row, Winnipeg was ranked among the most affordable places to live in an international study. Regina is considered the most affordable city in Canada, with Winnipeg and Quebec City tied in second place.

The study was done by the Frontier Centre for Public Policy, and measured the cost of buying a home compared to a person's salary in cities in Canada, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland and the United Kingdom.

Winnipeg's affordability ranked ninth overall -- well ahead of dozens of cities -- and was comparable to housing prices in Wichita, Kan., Toledo, Ohio and Omaha, Neb.

Speaking to the Free Press on Sunday, study author Wendell Cox of St. Louis had a message for Winnipeg homeowners still not sold on their city.

"When you get up in the morning and it's very cold in mid-January, ask yourself, 'Would I be happier in a tiny apartment in Vancouver, (where) it's raining outside and I'm not a whole lot more comfortable?' " Cox said. "The fact is, Winnipeg is very affordable, and I would expect this to continue. These are not things that fluctuate wildly.

"As long as the people in charge -- the mayor, city council and provincial politicians -- stay out of the way and allow the free development of the market, Winnipeg is in a far-improved, competitive position."

The median house price in the city is estimated at $130,100, and the median household annual income is about $52,000.

Housing affordability is luring people to Winnipeg, or, in the case of Gail Suszynski, luring them back.

"Anybody going out to Calgary right now on a job offer is crazy, because the prices of homes are unbelievable, and rent is atrocious," said Suszynski, who recently returned to Winnipeg after living in Calgary since 1993.

Suszynski sold a 900-square-foot unit of a side-by-side in Calgary for $310,000. It sold in less than 30 hours.

She then bought a considerably larger and nicer side-by-side in Winnipeg for less than two-thirds that price.

"I had never really planned on coming back, but with prices going the way they are, and with crime way up in Calgary...," Suszynski said.

A common house price in Calgary is $300,000 to $400,000 today, "whereas here, it gets you a small mansion," said Susan Domanski, a Century 21 realtor in Winnipeg.

Even a starter home in Vancouver costs $300,000, compared with $100,000 to $120,000 here, Domanski said. "It's a world away in terms of prices."

On average, it takes Winnipeggers 2.5 years of salary to buy a home -- up slightly from 2.4 years in 2005.

Last year, Winnipeg was ranked the most affordable place to live in Canada and ranked third compared to other international cities.

Wes Schollenberg, president of WinnipegRealtors Association, said the study confirms that the city offers a better quality of life compared to cities such as Calgary and Edmonton.

Although the cost of some homes in Winnipeg has jumped 15 per cent in the last year, Schollenberg said that pales in comparison to the average $400,000 price tag in cities such as Calgary.

"There's always been people who have moved from B.C. and Alberta, especially retirees, who take the equity in their home and live like a king here," he said. "It's a bit of a quality-of-life issue."

Saskatoon, Ottawa, London, Ont., and Oshawa were also included in a list of the top 40 affordable housing markets in the six countries.

Schollenberg expects Winnipeg's housing market to continue making healthy gains in 2007, but said people shouldn't worry about skyrocketing prices. He said the rise won't be as noticeable as it was last year or match the sharp increases seen in provinces such as Alberta.

The cost of construction materials and the demand for skilled labour will help drive up prices, he said. The city's apartment vacancy rate remains stable, and construction of apartment blocks, seniors' residences and condos will likely continue to grow.

"We're just sort of catching up," Schollenberg said.

Walter Boni, past president of the Winnipeg Real Estate Board, said the only drawback about the city's housing market is property taxes. He said Manitoba is one of the only provinces that lumps education and property taxes together, making the bill seem that much higher.

He said there is a movement among realtors to get the province to not include education with property taxes, and take away the initial shock of seeing an average annual tax bill of $2,800 for a home worth $160,000.

"Education tax is almost 50 per cent of our tax bill," he said. "It's a real shock for people coming here from other places."

-- With files from Jason Bell and Bill Redekop

Most affordable places to live (years of salary required to purchase home)

1) Fort Wayne, Ind. (2.0)

2) Regina, Sask. (2.0)

3) Youngstown, Ohio (2.0)

4) Buffalo, N.Y. (2.3)

5) Dayton, Ohio (2.3)

6) Indianapolis, Ind. (2.3)

7) Rochester, N.Y. (2.3)

8) Akron, Ohio (2.4)

9) Winnipeg (2.5)

10) Des Moines, Iowa (2.6)

Least affordable places to live (years of salary required to purchase home)

1) Orange County, Calif. (11.4)

2) San Diego, Calif. (10.5)

3) Honolulu, Hawaii (10.3)

4) San Francisco, Calif. (10.1)

5) Ventura County, Calif. (9.4)

6) Stockton, Calif. (8.6)

7) Sydney, Australia (8.5)

8) San Jose, Calif. (8.4)

9) London, U.K. (8.3)

10) Dorset, U.K. (8.2)

© 2007 Winnipeg Free Press. All Rights Reserved.
_________________________________________________________________

Time to move back home to the Motherland!.....
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  #2  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 2:42 PM
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This story brings an interesting question... medians are fine (to be honest I'm amazed the median income in Winnipeg is so high, but I guess with 2 income families being the norm these days...), but what about you folks? How does this compare to reality for you? I'm sitting around 4.5 years personally. Is that excessive compared to the rest of the folks here?

I'm fondly remembering the days in Winnipeg where it seemed that everyone had a $300/month mortgage payment, and was earning at least $25,000 annually. That's around 2 years, give or take. How much have things changed for "regular folk"?
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  #3  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 2:56 PM
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I wish these comparisons would use the costs on a monthly basis (mortgage, property tax and utilities) and then compare it to monthly income after income tax.

The last I heard the median household income in Calgary was over $73,000/year. With the lower taxes Albertans take home more income and when you take the $21,000/year above Manitoba, it can go a LONG way towards paying a mortgage. $1700/month is almost a $300k mortgage.

At the end of the day I think that if you want to compare 2 income families in Calgary with 2 income families in Winnipeg the Calgararians will still end up ahead of those in Winnipeg.

Also, Winnipeggers need to remember that the property taxes on a $300k home in Winnipeg will cost around $5000-6000/year compared to $1800/year in Calgary. So much for "living like a king in a mansion".
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h0twired View Post
I wish these comparisons would use the costs on a monthly basis (mortgage, property tax and utilities) and then compare it to monthly income after income tax.

The last I heard the median household income in Calgary was over $73,000/year. With the lower taxes Albertans take home more income and when you take the $21,000/year above Manitoba, it can go a LONG way towards paying a mortgage. $1700/month is almost a $300k mortgage.

At the end of the day I think that if you want to compare 2 income families in Calgary with 2 income families in Winnipeg the Calgararians will still end up ahead of those in Winnipeg.

Also, Winnipeggers need to remember that the property taxes on a $300k home in Winnipeg will cost around $5000-6000/year compared to $1800/year in Calgary. So much for "living like a king in a mansion".
Dude, where have you been on this board?? I have been trying to tell my friends in Regina the same thing but they just dont get it...

Calgary sounds expensive but when using this formula, my wife and I are sitting at 2.5 times our household income to buy a median home...
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  #5  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by yeeg View Post
Dude, where have you been on this board?? I have been trying to tell my friends in Regina the same thing but they just dont get it...

Calgary sounds expensive but when using this formula, my wife and I are sitting at 2.5 times our household income to buy a median home...
I hear you loud and clear. To be honest, I believed once that living in Winnipeg would be cheaper too. Then my wife made me prove it on a spreadsheet. Needless to say I was quite surprised with the result.

That being said. I am thinking about buying a few acres close to Winnipeg pretty soon to hang on to... and one day build a house on it. I like the city for many other reasons, its just the skewed "affordability" claims that make me irritated.
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 2:57 PM
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Now that I have entered the work force - my DINK household is sitting comfortably. The mortgage on our 1550 sq ft. house in Wolseley is just under $600 a month. All told we are now spending under 20% of gross income on household expenses. And that's everything - taxes, utilities, groceries...

Now granted, our house is 100 years old, and needs a little TLC - but it's a solid place in a great "midtown" location.

My sister lives in Calgary, and she and her husband make about the same as us, and are currently renting a house in Calgary where the rent alone is more than everything we pay for our place...
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 3:18 PM
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My sister lives in Calgary, and she and her husband make about the same as us, and are currently renting a house in Calgary where the rent alone is more than everything we pay for our place...
So clearly she and her husband are below the median, or you and your wife are above the median.

Based on your 20% figure for household expenses I would assume that you are making well over $52,000/yr.
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 3:22 PM
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^yes I am above the median - but my sister is also well above the Calgary median of 72k...
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 3:48 PM
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^yes I am above the median - but my sister is also well above the Calgary median of 72k...
How big is the house that they are renting? 1400 sq ft homes in Calgary rent for about $1500/month.

If they are making "well above" $72,000 why cant they afford to buy a house? Are they living beyond their means? I know of a number of people who make over $100,000 and are still renting because they like driving new cars, eating out every dinner and wearing designer clothing.
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by h0twired View Post
How big is the house that they are renting? 1400 sq ft homes in Calgary rent for about $1500/month.

If they are making "well above" $72,000 why cant they afford to buy a house? Are they living beyond their means? I know of a number of people who make over $100,000 and are still renting because they like driving new cars, eating out every dinner and wearing designer clothing.
Where? only in the Calgary Burbs can you rent a house for that or a crappy area...

Lets remember that the closer to downtown you are in Calgary the more expensive the house... (except the NE) Thus the average price of 400K is a long drive away from downtown so you can imagine the prices and rent closer to downtown...

FYI. my taxes are $6100/year on my house... I do live close to downtown...

I could move back to WPG live mortgage free in a house twice the size...but I am not moving unless the JETS come back..

Last edited by Pegger5; Jan 22, 2007 at 9:52 PM.
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 9:52 PM
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Where? only in the Calgary Burbs can you rent a house for that or a crappy area...

Lets remember that the closer to downtown you are in Calgary the more expensive the house... (except the NE) Thus the average price of 400K is a long drive away from downtown so you can imagine the prices and rent closer to downtown...
Granted, but that says nothing about if someone CAN afford somewhere to live. Now apparently it has to be in the right place too.

I live in McKenzie Towne. Hardly a crappy area. My commute is 20 min to downtown (I start work at 7am) and there are a number of houses for rent at the $1500/month mark.
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 11:14 PM
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Where? only in the Calgary Burbs can you rent a house for that or a crappy area...

Lets remember that the closer to downtown you are in Calgary the more expensive the house... (except the NE) Thus the average price of 400K is a long drive away from downtown so you can imagine the prices and rent closer to downtown...

FYI. my taxes are $6100/year on my house... I do live close to downtown...

I could move back to WPG live mortgage free in a house twice the size...but I am not moving unless the JETS come back..
Holy crap...Where do you live...Elbow Drive by the river? my taxes are $4300 but I live in Tanglewood...
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Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 12:01 AM
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Personally I am seriously relocating back to the Peg once I complete my business in Calgary over the next year or so. It is extremely hard to justify paying anything close to these property prices in Calgary, espcially with energy prices tanking so quickly. This is not to mention the low quality of the newer houses going up around town. They may have granite counters, but the workmanship is lacking... and they want 400K+ ... I just don't see it.

My wife and I have done well in Calgary... made some good money, but at the end of the day Winnipeg offers a much higher standard of living (at least for our tastes) .... owing a nice home and a lake front cottage is something we would really like. We also find the commuting time in Calgary to be more than we like... mostly do to the low capacity of infrastructure. In addition we have come to realize that Calgary is turning towards a much more generic city. With the closing of Eau Clair, Penny Lane Mall and the slow conversion of 17th away from dining and entertainment, the distict character is being sold as rapid as possible while the boom is on. The problem is the boom is also rapidly coming to an end in Calgary. There are some whispers of down sizing in this engery dominated city. It is really taking on the appearance of the 80's. Not that there will be a market crash in Calgary, but people here are not using much common sense when purchaisng homes... somehow defining there 400K home purchase as an investment. I would call it more speculation. thaninvestment. I have heard the stories of people dropping off the keys at the bank to there homes in the 80's after ther BIG investment tanked with the city.

If I owned a house in the Calgary Market I would be seriously considering selling while the market is still near its peak, but since I don't own I am in a situation of making some big choices.

We make a fairly good living.. above the quoated income of $72K.. .
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Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 12:03 AM
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Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 12:35 AM
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Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 1:23 AM
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Last edited by Pegger5; Jan 23, 2007 at 1:48 AM. Reason: How do you delete your own post?
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Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 1:38 AM
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Holy crap...Where do you live...Elbow Drive by the river? my taxes are $4300 but I live in Tanglewood...


Tanglewood? Is that by Tuscany?

I am very fortunate to live in a very nice inner city hood. Big trees etc...Big taxes but that is the way it goes.

I would be interested to see what the average taxes per home will be in Calgary vs. Winnipeg next July when the new taxes come out... I am sure they will be similiar especially with Calgary having increasing market value taxes.
We were very lucky as well to be in the market 4 years ago.

I feel for anyone buying their first home in Calgary... It would really suck for first time buyers and anyone moving here that were not a previous owner in Vancouver or Toronto.

Last edited by Pegger5; Jan 23, 2007 at 1:45 AM.
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Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 3:43 AM
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FYI. my taxes are $6100/year on my house... I do live close to downtown...
Must be nice to live in a house assessed at close to $1M.
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Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 3:50 AM
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Must be nice to live in a house assessed at close to $1M.
According to my calculations, his place comes in at a minimum 1.25 million
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Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 4:58 AM
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FYI. my taxes are $6100/year on my house... I do live close to downtown...

..
$6100/year. What kind of a house do you live in? I live in a house worth over 500k, and my taxes are less than $3000 a year. I'm paying $208.00/month

I found that Calgary was expensice at first, and that was a few years ago. alot of the cost of Calgary is relative. Right now today, it seems expensive, but Calgary was far more expensive than Edmonton when I first moved here in 1999. Today the price I paid for my house is cheaper than the average price in Edmonton, but my wage is still higher than if I had the same job in Edmonton. Alot of this is based around timing.

I don't know what the prices in Winnipeg were like 8 years ago, but I would bet that they were alot cheaper 8 years ago than Calgary was 8 ago. It's all relative.
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