Could Quebecois nationalism be exported to the rest of Canada?

[LakeLocker]

I was watching a 1972 documentary about the Quebec Nordiques the other day and I was surprised on how different their attitudes were towards nationalism and the modern bloc equivalent. The narrative I got from the video was that French Canadians happened to be in Quebec and that they were just another group of people living in Canada. The same French English divide could of easily been switched for Catholics and Protestants.


At the current moment I think the difference between Canadians and Americans are very similar. Yes we are different but it isn't something we live out in day to day life.

Could we really change stuff up using Quebec as an example?

I don't mean something like cutting off all interaction with Americans but maybe something as simple as forcing the NHL to create an all Canadian hockey division, or creation of a Canadian hockey league etc.

[Acajack]

If you look at it in the context of the wider world, or of humanity taken as a whole, there isn't really anything exceptional about Quebec nationalism.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

I was watching a 1972 documentary about the Quebec Nordiques the other day and I was surprised on how different their attitudes were towards nationalism and the modern bloc equivalent. The narrative I got from the video was that French Canadians happened to be in Quebec and that they were just another group of people living in Canada. The same French English divide could of easily been switched for Catholics and Protestants.


At the current moment I think the difference between Canadians and Americans are very similar. Yes we are different but it isn't something we live out in day to day life.

Could we really change stuff up using Quebec as an example?

I don't mean something like cutting off all interaction with Americans but maybe something as simple as forcing the NHL to create an all Canadian hockey division, or creation of a Canadian hockey league etc.

I was aghast when I saw the title of this thread, but if that's what you've got in mind, then go for it. Maybe add minimum content requirements for Canadian films in cinemas while you're at it

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If you look at it in the context of the wider world, or of humanity taken as a whole, there isn't really anything exceptional about Quebec nationalism.

Except that it was a relatively successful political effort.

They achieved all the supposed goals of nationalism without having to actually split from the country.

I'm not aware of this happening anywhere else.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I was aghast when I saw the title of this thread, but if that's what you've got in mind, then go for it. Maybe add minimum content requirements for Canadian films in cinemas while you're at it

The problem with film is that we are so integrated into the American film industry. Hockey is simpler because one could argue that having our own conference in the NHL could work.

The modern NHL has been engineered so that they have little interest in smaller hockey markets and at the same time were reliant on Canadian television rights to fund a lot of their failing southern franchises.


The erosion of the CBCs hockey night in Canada represents another failure of this branding. Given the CBC massive funding it'd make total sense for some of that money could be used to create our own national hockey league or to create our own conference within the NHL.


The other avenue that I could think of is some sort of music industry based on live music. The traditional labels have been wiped out by file sharing so there is room for a nationally sponsored music industry.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Except that it was a relatively successful political effort.

They achieved all the supposed goals of nationalism without having to actually split from the country.

I'm not aware of this happening anywhere else.

That's actually a pretty good point.

I wouldn't say "all of the goals" were achieved but arguably 80-90% of them have been.

[ssiguy]

The demographic and ideological basis of Quebec separatism has changed greatly since the 1960s.

The 1960/70/80s movement was a novel political ideal mostly spearheaded by people under 40. It was also promoted with a shocking amount of solid racism and anti-semitism. The "pure laine" basis of the idea meant that if you were not white and Francophone, you were definately not welcome.

The very small percentage of separatists who hold that view today are the burnt-out ones from that era and are quickly dying off. Quebcers {and especially Montrealers} young people paid a very heavy price for this ideology and the ridiculous notion that Quebec could just separate and everything would be exactly the same economically. Now that the province is doing well, that's a part of history they don't want to repeat.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The demographic and ideological basis of Quebec separatism has changed greatly since the 1960s.

The 1960/70/80s movement was a novel political ideal mostly spearheaded by people under 40. It was also promoted with a shocking amount of solid racism and anti-semitism. The "pure laine" basis of the idea meant that if you were not white and Francophone, you were definately not welcome.

The very small percentage of separatists who hold that view today are the burnt-out ones from that era and are quickly dying off. Quebcers {and especially Montrealers} young people paid a very heavy price for this ideology and the ridiculous notion that Quebec could just separate and everything would be exactly the same economically. Now that the province is doing well, that's a part of history they don't want to repeat.

And how do you explain the bloc doing so well?


As I said above I think the movement managed to dodge most of the more unpleasant issues associated with nationalism. Which is why I think the rest of Canada could learn from it.

[ssiguy]

As far as the Bloc is concerned, their aspirations have also changed. A relatively small amount of Bloc supporters are separatists and even fewer would vote for it when push came to shove. Their goals is a more independent social, political, and economic sphere but not actual separatism.

Bloc supporters know that separatism would reak havoc on Quebec. Bloc supporters also know that Canadians views have greatly changed and would find the any terms extreme as Ottawa would be in no mood to be diplomatic. English Canada has become far more secure in it's political, economic, and especially cultural and social life. They also know that, they would get no international recognition as being independent including by France. They know that any support of Quebec would be opening Pandora's Box in their own countries which is why no European countries are currently backing Catalonia's aspirations.

Despite what the remaining hardcore separatists like to think, Quebec separatism is very much dead.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

And how do you explain the bloc doing so well?

.

A vote for the Bloc isn't necessarily a vote for independence, though I think it's safe to say that people voting for the Bloc do think independence is a legitimate option, if not the most desirable one.

Take that for what it's worth.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

As far as the Bloc is concerned, their aspirations have also changed. A relatively small amount of Bloc supporters are separatists and even fewer would vote for it when push came to shove. Their goals is a more independent social, political, and economic sphere but not actual separatism.

Bloc supporters know that sreparatism would reak havoc on Quebec. Bloc supporters also know that Canadians views have greatly changed and would find the any terms extreme as Ottawa would be in no mood to be diplomatic. English Canada has become far more secure in it's political, economic, and especially cultural and social life. They also know that, they would get no international recognition as being independent including by France. They know that any support of Quebec would be opening Padora's Box in their own countries which is why no European countries are currently backing Catalonia's aspirations.

Despite what the remaining hardcore separatists like to think, Quebec separatism is very much dead.

There are way too many categorical certainties in this post.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A vote for the Bloc isn't necessarily a vote for independence, though I think it's safe to say that people voting for the Bloc do think independence is a legitimate option, if not the most desirable one.

Take that for what it's worth.

I don't think I ever mentioned separatism. That's the point.

They succeed without needing it.

Our economic integration with the US is far too strong for us to go our own way. What Canada needs is more of the carrot nationalism and less of the stick.


This is why my focus is on things like sports leagues, music etc.

[ssiguy]

Too many certainties? I don't see how. The economic repercussions are obvious and would be even more extreme today as international trade has expanded greatly since the 1960/70/80s and Quebec would be completely cut off from any trade agreements with other countries........Ottawa would make sure of that.

The world is full of different regions of a country wanting to separate and they get no support from anywhere. A recognition of even just one of them opens the door to the same aspirations in their own countries. Ottawa of course knows this and any potential terms would be harsh in the extreme. It would NOT be a negotiated departure but rather one where Ottawa sets all the terms and conditions and it would be in no mood to be diplomatic. Ottawa would crush Quebec's political and economic sphere and every country on this planet would be congradulating them for doing it.

NO country on the planet would be in favour of Ottawa taking a concillatory approach but rather quite the opposite. They would be DEMANDING that Ottawa play hard ball and dictate the terms to Quebec and make any potential separate Quebec pay a very heavy price. They would DEMAND that Ottawa set terms that woul crush Quebec economically, socially, and politically to send a clear message to their own citizens.........this is what's in store for you should you try the same.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Too many certainties? I don't see how. The economic repercussions are obvious and would be even more extreme today as international trade has expanded greatly since the 1960/70/80s and Quebec would be completely cut off from any trade agreements with other countries........Ottawa would make sure of that.

The world is full of different regions of a country wanting to separate and they get no support from anywhere. A recognition of even just one of them opens the door to the same aspirations in their own countries. Ottawa of course knows this and any potential terms would be harsh in the extreme. It would NOT be a negotiated departure but rather one where Ottawa sets all the terms and conditions and it would be in no mood to be diplomatic. Ottawa would crush Quebec's political and economic sphere and every country on this planet would be congradulating them for doing it.

NO country on the planet would be in favour of Ottawa taking a concillatory approach but rather quite the opposite. They would be DEMANDING that Ottawa play hard ball and dictate the terms to Quebec and make any potential separate Quebec pay a very heavy price. They would DEMAND that Ottawa set terms that woul crush Quebec economically, socially, and politically to send a clear message to their own citizens.........this is what's in store for you should you try the same.

The scenarios you describe are possible, but many alternative scenarios are also possible. Nobody knows. Nobody even knows how "Ottawa" would be reconstituted to be able to engage on the issues if post referendum negotiations were required. One assumes Canada would be guided by "what's best for Canada", but that has never been defined and won't be (in any public way) until the time comes. I don't recall any countries making demands of the UK at the time of the Scottish referendum ....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The scenarios you describe are possible, but many alternative scenarios are also possible. Nobody knows.

We sort of have clues. Watch how the rest of Europe reacts to the Catalonian separatists.

The global community will tolerate separatism from those that are genuinely oppressed (Kosovo, East Timor, etc.). The idea that you get to break up a nation-state because you aren't getting the absolute best economic deal or everything you want culturally, seems to be a tough sell (Catalonia, Basque, etc.).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We sort of have clues. Watch how the rest of Europe reacts to the Catalonian separatists.

The global community will tolerate separatism from those that are genuinely oppressed (Kosovo, East Timor, etc.). The idea that you get to break up a nation-state because you aren't getting the absolute best economic deal or everything you want culturally, seems to be a tough sell (Catalonia, Basque, etc.).

I don't see anyone holding Spain's feet to the fire, but then given the Spanish constitution, nobody really needs to.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The scenarios you describe are possible, but many alternative scenarios are also possible. Nobody knows. Nobody even knows how "Ottawa" would be reconstituted to be able to engage on the issues if post referendum negotiations were required. One assumes Canada would be guided by "what's best for Canada", but that has never been defined and won't be (in any public way) until the time comes. I don't recall any countries making demands of the UK at the time of the Scottish referendum ....

This is the post I agree with the most, given that there are so many variables involved.

As sympathetic as I am to their cause (without actually supporting it), the Catalans' independence referendum was of dubious validity since the turnout was so low which really gives the impression that only the pro-independence people took part. Which largely explains the overwhelming result for the "Si".

On the other hand Spain's heavy-handed repressive approach to this (and the resulting chaos in Catalonia) is clearly taking on a toll on that country's global image.

Because of this and a few other things in recent years, they're looking less and less like a "full patch" member of the brotherhood of western democratic "enlightened" countries, and more like a fringe member aka a rogue cousin you are obligated to tolerate and invite when protocol requires the entire family to be present.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Except that it was a relatively successful political effort.

They achieved all the supposed goals of nationalism without having to actually split from the country.

I'm not aware of this happening anywhere else.

Scotland floats to mind, but Brexit is now testing how durable such a thing is.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The scenarios you describe are possible, but many alternative scenarios are also possible. Nobody knows. Nobody even knows how "Ottawa" would be reconstituted to be able to engage on the issues if post referendum negotiations were required. One assumes Canada would be guided by "what's best for Canada", but that has never been defined and won't be (in any public way) until the time comes. I don't recall any countries making demands of the UK at the time of the Scottish referendum ....

I would add that, for what it's worth at this juncture, Canada is probably more similar to the UK in its political and social culture, as opposed to Spain which still has a legacy of fascism not too far away in its late 20th century history.

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

I was watching a 1972 documentary about the Quebec Nordiques the other day and I was surprised on how different their attitudes were towards nationalism and the modern bloc equivalent. The narrative I got from the video was that French Canadians happened to be in Quebec and that they were just another group of people living in Canada. The same French English divide could of easily been switched for Catholics and Protestants.


At the current moment I think the difference between Canadians and Americans are very similar. Yes we are different but it isn't something we live out in day to day life.

Could we really change stuff up using Quebec as an example?

I don't mean something like cutting off all interaction with Americans but maybe something as simple as forcing the NHL to create an all Canadian hockey division, or creation of a Canadian hockey league etc.

I feel like there is a growing cultural divide between Americans and Canadians that will eventually cause the needs and preferences of Canadians to be serviced differently than those of Americans. However, the way I see it, it's being more influenced by the changes in American attitudes, not Canadians, producing the illusion of a growing "Canadian identity" from outside, when nothing is really changing all that much inside. One day we're going to find ourselves different enough that a more Quebec-style nationalistic approach will be the only way that we'll get what we want up here.

I'd say that prior to the US/Canadian borders becoming more rigorously enforced as a result of 9/11, there wasn't any difference between Americans and Canadians since mobility between the two nations was very easy and cross-border familial ties were much more common. The presence of a harder border fosters the idea that we are two different countries. The results of the 2016 election in the United States have continued to fuel the divide, with a new, generally widespread and well-represented acceptance of values that we ourselves mostly do not find acceptable in our own nation. The perpetuation of these values in the US will further separate us from them.

Seriousness aside, I would be very happy with an all-Canadian NHL equivalent.