Stop using "Northeastern", "Midwestern", "Sunbelt" etc. for Canadian cities?

[Docere]

Is our use of the American terms to describe Canadian cities - "Northeastern", "Midwestern", "Sunbelt"(!) etc. reflect colonial mentality at work? Does this terminology really apply to Canadian cities?

[esquire]

^ I never hear anyone saying northeastern or sunbelt to refer to Canada (what would the sunbelt even be here?), although I do hear Midwestern. That one actually seems to apply to some extent although not quite in the same way that the American version does in that country.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I never hear anyone saying northeastern or sunbelt to refer to Canada (what would the sunbelt even be here?), although I do hear Midwestern. That one actually seems to apply to some extent although not quite in the same way that the American version does in that country.

We have a poster on SSP who seems to have made it a life mission to convince everyone that Toronto is basically a Sunbelt city.

And people debate whether Toronto and Ontario are "more" Northeastern or Midwestern. "Midwestern" is often used pejoratively though and Northeastern being a sign of cosmopolitanism.

[Acajack]

I've never actually heard the three regional names in the title used for parts of Canada, or heard Canadian regions lumped into their American variants.

That said, some American-origin regional names do have cross-border evocations.

The classic example is SW BC lumped in with the Pacific Northwest. This doesn't make sense in the Canadian context.

The Prairies are sometimes lumped in with the Great Plains, and obviously the Rocky Mountain region has cross-border ramifications as well.

Southern Ontario is often lumped in with the Great Lakes states, and the Maritimes are often portrayed as a kind of Extended New England.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That said, some American-origin regional names do have cross-border evocations.

How far back do comparisons go? The "Last Best West" references the American West, and lines between the British and American control of the Pacific Northwest were still disputed in the 1800s, but I don't think there's much of a history of eastern Canadians and eastern Americans seeing one another as belonging to "one region" that's cross-border overall. The border between quite a lot of eastern Canada and the US is late 1700s in origin, after the Treaty of Paris.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've never actually heard the three regional names in the title used for parts of Canada, or heard Canadian regions lumped into their American variants.

That said, some American-origin regional names do have cross-border evocations.

The classic example is SW BC lumped in with the Pacific Northwest. This doesn't make sense in the Canadian context.

The Prairies are sometimes lumped in with the Great Plains, and obviously the Rocky Mountain region has cross-border ramifications as well.

Southern Ontario is often lumped in with the Great Lakes states, and the Maritimes are often portrayed as a kind of Extended New England.

what he said.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Docere

We have a poster on SSP who seems to have made it a life mission to convince everyone that Toronto is basically a Sunbelt city.

And people debate whether Toronto and Ontario are "more" Northeastern or Midwestern. "Midwestern" is often used pejoratively though and Northeastern being a sign of cosmopolitanism.

It sounds like comparisons are being drawn to US regions which is fair ball, even if the comparisons themselves seem like a real stretch.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Docere

We have a poster on SSP who seems to have made it a life mission to convince everyone that Toronto is basically a Sunbelt city.

And people debate whether Toronto and Ontario are "more" Northeastern or Midwestern. "Midwestern" is often used pejoratively though and Northeastern being a sign of cosmopolitanism.

Toronto's post-war sprawl is much more similar to Sunbelt sprawl than the Snowbelt/Rustbelt-style sprawl, in terms of the density, the size, the discrete urban-rural boundary.

You'd have to be denial if you believe Mississauga and Brampton have more resemblance to Putnam County, NY than West Covina, CA.

Toronto is a giant, glorified suburb, just like a Sunbelt city. Even Toronto city proper is mostly post-war suburbia. I don't see how pointing out this obvious fact with a few posts in a single thread means it is my "life mission".

Of course, there are some significant differences with Toronto's sprawl, such as all the TOD features and high bus ridership. In the Great Canadian Transit Thread, I pointed out that Scarborough has better transit ridership than both Queens and Brooklyn, NY. We can't look at only at the differences and ignore the similarities (or vice versa). But I think I have gone to greater lengths to point out those differences than anyone here. I'm not the one painting all these places with the same brush (e.g. The Soul-Sucking Canada thread).

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Doady

Toronto's post-war sprawl is much more similar to Sunbelt sprawl than the Snowbelt/Rustbelt-style sprawl, in terms of the density, the size, the discrete urban-rural boundary.

You'd have to be denial if you believe Mississauga and Brampton have more resemblance to Putnam County, NY than West Covina, CA.

Again, it's a Canada-US difference, not a Sunbelt-Rustbelt type difference. There's also a difference between L.A. specifically and the rest of the Sunbelt, like Atlanta. Is Toronto more Sunbelt-y than Atlanta because it has denser suburbs? Ridiculous.

There's nothing like Laval outside Boston or NYC either.

Toronto is a giant, glorified suburb, just like a Sunbelt city. Even Toronto city proper is mostly post-war suburbia.

Except Toronto is actually very core-centric and has a sizable downtown and urban core. That matters, it's not just some little "quirk." Nobody who visits Toronto would think it's Phoenix with snow.

Detroit may be "older" and have a higher percentage of pre-1940 dwellings but it is more car-centric than Toronto.

I'm not the one painting all these places with the same brush (e.g. The Soul-Sucking Canada thread).

Yes, there's also that great "thinker" Wendell Cox.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Doady

Toronto is a giant, glorified suburb, just like a Sunbelt city. Even Toronto city proper is mostly post-war suburbia. I don't see how pointing out this obvious fact with a few posts in a single thread means it is my "life mission".

That's certainly not a fair description of Toronto. Mississauga, sure, as much as people might disagree I don't feel any different there than I do on Commonwealth Avenue in Mount Pearl, Newfoundland. It's suburbia. The lifestyle is surprisingly similar and not what I want, just in taller surroundings.

But Toronto as a whole? We're talking millions and millions and millions of people. Even if you cut it down to just the neighbourhoods you find tolerable, mash them together and it's still one of Canada's top cities by any measure. Sure others have something special and you can have specific needs that Toronto can't meet, but you have to be objective. Toronto will certainly be at minimum second in meeting those needs in the country.

Even if I say I need to live on a street of colourful attached houses with mostly Newfoundlanders for neighbours and a traditional fish'n'chip place within walking distance and a bar that touring Newfoundland folk bands perform at, I guarantee you outside St. John's, Toronto is going to come closest to that (and very likely can give me exactly that).

And that's going to be true, I suspect, for all of our individual preferences.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I never hear anyone saying northeastern or sunbelt to refer to Canada (what would the sunbelt even be here?), although I do hear Midwestern. That one actually seems to apply to some extent although not quite in the same way that the American version does in that country.

ditto, never heard those terms used ever in Canada

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I never hear anyone saying northeastern or sunbelt to refer to Canada (what would the sunbelt even be here?), although I do hear Midwestern. That one actually seems to apply to some extent although not quite in the same way that the American version does in that country.

Same here. I've only ever heard "Great Lakes" or "Midwestern" in reference to Southern Ontario (from Toronto west). And that only rarely, when emphasizing commonalities with the U.S. side.

[Docere]

Americans are far more "guilty" of this, which makes sense.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Americans are far more "guilty" of this, which makes sense.

I feel like though its more often that Canadian cities aren't on Americans' radar or are just thought of as their own separate category. Only a few people interested in cross-border city comparisons, such as forums like this, not the general public think that much about fitting or shoehorning Canadian cities into US regions.

For example, I'd imagine if given a list of cities like say, LA, Seattle, Phoenix, Vancouver, Toronto, NYC, Philly, Atlanta, most Americans "on the street" would more likely think:

Eastern cities -- NYC, Philly, Atlanta.
Western cities -- LA, Seattle, Phoenix
Canadian cities, or "non-US" cities -- Vancouver, Toronto

rather than

Eastern cities -- NYC, Philly, Atlanta, Toronto.
Western cities -- LA, Seattle, Phoenix, Vancouver

The national border, even if weak as cultural boundary, as people might argue, still makes a difference in people's minds.

[Docere]

American posters, yes, not Americans in general. For that matter I don't think average people in Buffalo spend their time debating whether their city is "really" Midwestern either.

[Docere]

http://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/...=225396&page=7

https://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum...68&postcount=3

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...&postcount=208

[WhipperSnapper]

of all things ...

[Acajack]

I've also heard people refer to extreme SW Ontario as "the banana belt", and this moniker is sometimes used for the milder parts of BC.

But I am pretty sure this is in jest!

[Biff]

The only terms I ever hear are West Coast or BC, The Prairies, Northern Ontario, Southern Ontario, Quebec, Atlantic Canada or East Coast.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Biff

The only terms I ever hear are West Coast or BC, The Prairies, Northern Ontario, Southern Ontario, Quebec, Atlantic Canada or East Coast.

Of these only East coast and West coast would be ambiguous in a North American context. Even "The Prairies" is much more of a Canadian term vs. the US Plains or Great Plains.